by Geoffrey Ciani – This week’s 87th edition of On the Ropes Boxing Radio featured an exclusive interview with former undisputed middleweight champion of the world ‘Marvelous’ Marvin Hagler who was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1993. Hagler was involved in high profile bouts against the likes of Tommy Hearns, Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, and Vito Antuofermo just to name a few. Hagler is widely viewed as one of the best boxers of all-time and is regarded by many as the greatest middleweight to ever lace up a pair of gloves. Here is a complete transcript of that interview.
JENNA J: Anyway guys, it’s time for our third guest on this week’s show. We actually have him on the line with us right now. Marvelous Marvin Hagler, are you with us?
MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER: Yes I am.
JENNA: Well we are happy to be joined by you. It’s the second time we’ve had you on the show and I just want to say it’s a pleasure having you on. How’s your day going?
HAGLER: Oh, very good. Just beside the rain and whatever, it’s great up here. We’ve been having a pretty good nice summer and I’m enjoying it, relaxing a little bit, and getting a chance to visit my family and close friends.
JENNA: Great. Now today is actually a little bit of an anniversary of sorts for you. It’s actually 33 years to the day that you got your rubber match win against Willie Monroe. It’s been a bit of a long time, what do you remember of that trilogy?
HAGLER: Don’t make me feel old. (laughs) 33, I’m only 29. No, no, but the Willie Monroe fight, I think that was a big stepping stone for me. At the time fighting those Philadelphia fighters, they were all tough contenders so I had the opportunity of fighting them and just moved on from there. They taught me a lot and I believe that either one of those guys in Philly could have been champion of the world if I didn’t destroy them.
JENNA: Yeah, you certainly did well and that’s something you’ve been known for in your career is doing great in rematches. If you look at some of your losses, you lost to Bobby Watts. When you took him on again you took him out in two rounds. You had a draw with a guy by the name of Sugar Ray Seales, then you took him out in one round, and of course Willie Monroe in the final fight you took him out in two. Why do you think you were so impressive in those rematches?
HAGLER: Well I believe that I probably got madder and things happened in between the ropes there which I didn’t like, because there was a draw and whatever and I think we should do it again. That I think is the mark of a great champion, when either way, you give the guy another opportunity at you. So my thing was that if you didn’t believe that I beat you the first time, then we’ll do it again.
JENNA: Well that’s certainly a great sentiment to have. You’ve had a bunch of rematches and trilogies in your career and something that you’ve been known for is your character in the boxing ring and I wanted to talk a little about your career and character. It took you six and a half years to get a title shot. What was it like to have to go through that long wait being denied that shot and then to finally get it?
HAGLER: Well it was a sweet thing in a sense, because it showed that all of my hard work and everything really paid off. I believe what you’re talking about was the Antuofermo fight back in ’79 which I felt as though I won. That was a draw. I understood now that you can’t leave a champion standing. You got to beat him decisively or knock him out in order to take the title away from him. At least that’s the way it was back then in those days. Other than that, my other highlights I would have to say would be when I won the title from Alan Minter, and then I would have to say that the biggest highlight of my career would have to be Thomas Hearns.
JENNA: That certainly would be, but let’s go back to that fight with Vito Antuofermo. I mean you wanted that title shot, you pined for it, you finally got it, and in that fight you won the first ten rounds pretty dominantly. You were very dominant, and it seemed a little bit later in the fight that you stepped off the gas, you backed off, and you allowed him to get some rounds. Do you at all regret what you did in that match there and what was the reason that you took your foot off the gas?
HAGLER: No, I don’t believe so. I think when a guy’s fighting Antuofermo, he was a bull in a sense. Not to say that he was a dirty fighter, but he used his head a lot and you really had to be cautious about his head. In that fight, like I said, I felt as though that I won that fight and they denied me of that so I went on a rampage. I was mad and anybody that stood in my way, now that I learned that part of the boxing game, is that you can’t leave them standing and that’s what I was intending on doing—not let another one stand in front of me again. So I would say the second fight with Antuofermo, when I gave him the opportunity now that I was champion, and to say to Antuofermo, ‘Okay’. I just remember me jumping up in the air with my legs and my arms because I was so glad when this guy couldn’t continue the second time and he returned my belts to me. So that was a great feeling.
JENNA: Yeah, you literally did go on a rampage there. In your next sixteen fights you won fourteen by KO so I think people learned there not to job Marvelous Marvin Hagler on the cards. It certainly upsets him.
HAGLER: (laughs) You don’t want to get me upset.
JENNA: No, trust me, Tommy Hearns found that out in his fight. So I don’t think that was exactly what Vito planned there or the judges planned to do, but it was certainly great for boxing fans. Anyway Marvin, we’re also joined by my co-host Geoff Ciani.
HAGLER: Hi Geoff.
GEOFFREY CIANI: Hey Marvelous. It’s a great pleasure to have you back on the show again.
HAGLER: Yeah, it’s great to be back on your show again.
CIANI: Great, it’s great to have you back Marvin. One of the questions I wanted to as you Marvin, was I recently conducted a survey with a bunch of longtime boxing fans to rate the best middleweights of all time. I had you at number one on my list, but when I tabulated the final results, you finished #3 behind Carlos Monzon and Harry Greb. I’m wondering Marvin, where would you rank yourself in middleweight history?
HAGLER: Well you know those are great champions and because I think I was a throwback from the old days, like a Sugar Ray Robinson and Gene Fullmer and guys I would say like Jake Lamotta, it was something that I had to do to bring back the respect to the middleweight division. At the time coming up, when the heavyweight division was really notable by Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and all these tough guys in the light heavyweight division, you had Bob Foster. In the middleweights we were lacking something, so I was very honored in the sense that I finally started gaining my recognition as one of the top middleweights in the world. But for me still, I feel as though Carlos Monzon was a great champion. It took ten years and we would have loved to have fought him if we had the opportunity, but unfortunately that never happened. So just continuing and looking at guys like Emile Griffith and all these great middleweights. It’s always been the toughest division out there in the world of boxing I feel.
CIANI: Now you made mention of this. One of the fights that a lot of fans always talk about on these message boards when they come up with hypothetical match-ups between different fighters in their primes would have been a fight between you and Monzon. I’m curious Marvin, how do you think you would have fared? How do you think a fight between you and Monzon, when each at your best, would have played out?
HAGLER: Well I believe behind my orthodox style I’d probably be fighting him on the inside to get inside his long reach. Just knowing that this guy had a powerful right hand, I mean Monzon had one of the best right hands in the business also besides Tommy Hearns. So I kind of learned a lot and I think I would have given him a lot of fits.
CIANI: Since your retirement, the best middleweight that’s graced the ring in boxing has been Bernard Hopkins. He actually came in at #5 on my survey. Marvin, what did you think of Bernard Hopkins during his middleweight reign as champion where he had a record twenty title defenses? What did you think of him as a champion in the middleweight division?
HAGLER: Well I give a lot of respect with Bernard because I met him one day. I believe that he’s going to be a future Hall of Famer. I like the fact that he’s another one like myself that tried to keep the middleweight division alive, which he did. As far as the twenty defenses, I was glad in a sense that I retired, because I probably would have continued on fighting again. So I think that was the best thing that happened for me.
CIANI: Bernard is actually talking about making a move up to heavyweight to challenge heavyweight title holder David Haye. He’s I believe 46 now, Bernard. Do you think that he’s the type of fighter that could have some success in the heavyweight division at this age?
HAGLER: My opinion is the best thing is to get out of the game while you’re young so that you could basically have another life. Boxing was very good for me, but then knowing that after I got out of boxing it was the best move that I made. You still continue. Bernard Hopkins at 46, I believe that if you get hurt now at that stage and that age, I think it takes a long time for you to recover. No fighter wants to really be where can’t speak and think positively. I feel very fortunate. My thinking is great, my speech pattern is okay, and I’m able to move on. So I believe that watching guys like Muhammad Ali and all these older fighters that were able to stay inside the ring so long, the physical aspect is deteriorating in time. Even I believe a guy like George Foreman at 42 years old I think that he won the title. I mean this inspires these young fighters to continue saying, ‘Well if George did it, I can do it too’ but I think that is a bad move for fighters because even though you think about it, the shot is not there. It’s only there in your mind. Then if your legs go, what do you got? The best way is to leave the game with respect and without making yourself look bad or regretting anything that you have done.
CIANI: You definitely left the sport when you were on top of your game and you said that you were happy with your decision to stay retired. I’m wondering, though, was there ever any point where you did think about coming back after the Leonard fight and where you considered giving it another go and giving it another run?
HAGLER: Well you know, in my opinion, when I started watching these younger fighters in my division coming up and then you start thinking I can take that guy and whatever like that. You got to smack yourself in the head, ‘Hello Marvin! You’re retired! Let them guys do their own thing’ and it’s great entertainment for you. But hopefully there’s somebody who will try to do the same thing I did and bring the dignity into my middleweight division. So that’s basically what I was looking at, but again, I’m glad that I’m out of there. I’m tied up in chains. No more ice. I think ice was my best friends. I’d sleep with it every night.
JENNA: Marvin now you fought some of the best fighters out there from any era. You fought Roberto Duran, you fought Thomas Hearns, you fought Sugar Ray Leonard. What was it like to fight all these great names and how do you think they would do in today’s division?
HAGLER: Well you know, that was a tough time in a great era in a sense because I believe that all these guys could fight. You weren’t going to have a field day like with what they’re doing today. I mean all these guys had like over forty fights or whatever, where these guys now today have only like twenty fights and they’re world champions? I mean, come on! It took me fifty fights to get a shot at the title, which was probably the best thing so I was able to hold onto it a lot longer. Most of the fighters today, I think they hold the title from about six months to one year and then all of a sudden they lost it. So I still feel as though for the throwbacks in the old days that that was the best lesson for me, to go through the hard way, which I did, and then when you retire it’s knowing that you have fought the best in the world. You got nothing else to prove.
JENNA: What do you think about today’s stars? You have Manny Pacquiao who has come from 106 pounds all the way up to 147. You got Floyd Mayweather Junior out there. What do you think of today’s stars in boxing?
HAGLER: With the Pacquiao and Mayweather fight, I think that Mayweather might be a little scared. But then there’s another thing, and he’s almost looking like a Sugar Ray Leonard in the type of sense where he is dictating all of the time. Hello! If you’re going to fight, let’s fight! Let’s stop all this stuff. Let’s just get it on! I mean that is what boxing is about. So he’s trying to gain more money or whatever. I mean you already made enough money. Do you want to fight the guy? Yes or no? And I think that Pacquiao is saying, ‘Come on! Let’s do it today’. But I wouldn’t wait around for Mayweather. I would take another fight and still make as much money as I can and then leave the game while I’m still on top.
JENNA: When you speak of Mayweather, he’s a guy that always wants concessions. You fought a guy yourself that liked concessions and that was Sugar Ray Leonard. Looking back at that fight there, do you at all regret giving those types of concessions to him and do you think Pacquiao should stay with what he wants to do to make this fight happen?
HAGLER: Well the thing is, when you want to retire you want to go out knowing you fought the best in the world and this was the only fight that was left for me that meant anything. So normally, you would say ‘I’ll give you anything that you want. I’ll tell you what I’ll do—I’ll even fight you in your living room. I’ll come to your house’.
JENNA: You certainly did make that fight happen. When people look at it today, though, they watch the fight, everyone scores it differently. Yourself there, the last time we had you on you said you broke all of your TVs when you watch it. When you look at it now, do you have any regrets about the way you fought that fight? You fought orthodox for the first few rounds. Do you at all regret doing that?
HAGLER: No. If I look at it again, I’ll probably break another television. But anyway, I feel as though I did the best that I could do, whether I was fighting orthodox or whatever like that. The main thing is not trying to go out there and try to knock the guy out. The main thing is just to win that fight and that’s what I felt as though I did, and still do inside my heart, I don’t feel any differently. I still feel like a champion like I told you before and nothing has changed.
CIANI: Marvin, changing things up a tiny bit here, one of the British fans of our program Steve Grocutt, he wanted me to say something to you and mention that him and his father Bob were both big fans of your era of boxing. They were disgusted by the idiots throwing bottles and debris into the ring following your win against Minter, and they wanted me to tell you that all British boxing fans aren’t like that and that they were totally disgusted that this happened to a legend like yourself on their soil. Steve wanted me to ask you, he said, ‘Did you ever hold any ill will towards British fans in general following that experience’?
HAGLER: Well I think that what they did was, they kind of banned boxing after when they had seen what happened to me on television. They were kind of leery and scared a little bit about having the fighters go over to that country, but the English people have been so apologetic to me. It only takes a handful of people to make the whole country look bad, and I forgive them for that now. What is it, 1980 when I won the title? So here we go talking about my age again. (laughs) I told them that I would never go back to that country and I lied, because I realized that it was only a handful of people that did that. I got what I wanted. I went after the title. I took the title without any question. I stopped him in the three rounds and it was just a terrible way that I couldn’t enjoy it. I believe that I’m the only champion in the world that never received the belt inside the ring. I still get a little jealous about that sometimes when I see other champions holding up their belt after their match. But for my protection and everything, the bodyguards did a real good job on getting me out of there. I was just on my knees and just thanking God for really just giving me my gift that I wanted all my life. So I was happy about that.
CIANI: Marvin, another guest we’ve had on our program before is somebody you’ve knocked out and that was Sugar Ray Phillips, and he gave us his tale about your fight together and I’m wondering what your reflections are thinking back on that fight against Big Sugar Ray Phillips.
HAGLER: Well I think there was another fighter I was supposed to fight. I think his name was Vinnie Curto, and he had pulled out of the fight. So then they put in this guy called Sugar Ray Phillips and I remember this guy ran even faster than Leonard. I mean he was quick. Then I finally got upset with him and I stopped him. But this guy was another runner. You know what I’m trying to say. So those type of things, you have to get a guy out of there kind of quick so that they really don’t embarrass you, you know what I mean? But he was a pretty good fighter. I think I broke his jaw, didn’t I? Did he mention that?
CIANI: No, I don’t think he mentioned that.
JENNA: No, I don’t think he mentioned that. He mentioned that you kept hitting him with your head. He said you kept using your bald head to head butt him.
HAGLER: It’s so funny, because that fight in the sense like in the years, you think about Muhammad Ali and Ken Norton where Ken Norton broke Muhammad Ali’s jaw. Then I remember my manager and trainer telling me, ‘You know Marvin, you broke the guy’s jaw. The guy is in the hospital and you got to go see if he’s okay’. I said, ‘For what? This guy is trying to kill me and you want me to go to the hospital and see this guy? No way! Hell no! Forget him!’ (laughs) It’s a dirty business. There’s no friends in that ring.
JENNA: Well speaking of not being friends in the ring, after your fight with Sugar Ray Leonard you wanted a rematch. He wouldn’t give it to you. It was something we asked the last time we had you on the show. We actually had the pleasure of talking to Sugar Ray probably about three weeks after we talked to you and we told him what you said about the fight there, and how he didn’t want the fight. I actually wanted to play you a clip from that so you can hear what he said about the reason he felt there wasn’t a rematch.
SUGAR RAY LEONARD: Why wouldn’t I have given him a rematch? I mean that would have been a perfect fight again. That first fight was relatively close, but that would have generated so much interest for a second fight. I mean I would have done that in a heartbeat. Hagler, I think he forgets that he went away. He moved away to Milan, Italy. So he was the one who threw his hands up and said no more. I’m not going to do this any longer and he retired. So you need to call Hagler back.
JENNA: Well Marvin, we got you back on here. What do you think about Ray’s comments?
HAGLER: Well you know, that is Leonard. Everybody knows Leonard and they can imagine what he was going to say, but that was not true. I was still here in America. If the fight was to happen, I would have took that fight right away because I hung around the game for one year until I realized one thing. This guy is waiting for you to get old. He’s waiting for me to maybe come back and fight somebody else and then they beat you. He had all kinds of excuses. There’s no way. He was also afraid probably that you see every time I fought a person the second time what I did to them. He was nervous and I know. He didn’t want to fight. So I realized that, so you know what I had to do. I had to start putting my head together and started putting my life together and started thinking about my future and it was time for me to move on, not sit here and wait for this guy to dictate to me again if he’s going to do it or not. Hello! If you wanted to fight, that’s all you had to say right then. Just give me the rematch just like any other champion would have done.
JENNA: That’s not the first time in your career that you said hey, maybe I’ve had enough and I wanted to ask you about that. That was your fight with John Mugabi, ‘The Beast’. He was 26-0 with 26 knockouts. It was a fight that was a grueling fight certainly. I just wanted to get your reflections on that bout there and your feelings after having to go through an eleven round war with John ‘The Beast’ Mugabi.
HAGLER: I give John ‘The Beast’ Mugabi a lot of credit, I give Roberto Duran a lot of credit, and I give Thomas Hearns a lot of credit because these guys came out there and tried to take my title. Mugabi tried to knock my head off. I mean this guy here was kind of awkward. I mean he was a big puncher, 20 fights, 20 knockouts, but I said, ‘You know what? You’ve never been in the ring with the Marvelous One, and I’ll tell you what. I will feast on ‘The Beast’.’
CIANI: Marvin, I’m curious, I recently had a chance to interview Emanuel Steward and I got his whole perspective which primarily focused on the first fight between Sugar Ray Leonard and Tommy Hearns and they’re both guys that you got in the ring with. I’m just curious, at the time when that fight was happening, what were your impressions of the fight and what your expectations before that fight happened?
HAGLER: Well you know, like anything else, all of these guys were like vultures. They were all sitting on the fence like Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns, Ray Leonard, and they were always like praying that somebody would knock me off so they’d never have to fight that guy. But eventually, I kept moving forward and putting the pressure on them and the money started getting bigger so I think they had to come out. It was only a matter of time. But with the Thomas Hearns and the Leonard fight, I watched that fight and it was a great fight. I take nothing away, but then I see that Tommy got shook up there in the thirteenth round or whatever. Still, what they called Leonard at that time was ‘The Pretty Boy’ and the ‘Olympic Champion’ and all that stuff so a lot of things went in his favor. But it was a good fight. I don’t take nothing away from that, but I realized what kind of job I had that was laying in front of me.
CIANI: Now changing things up a little bit about your career, Marvin. One of the fights that I think there was some talks about was the fight between you and Michael Spinks and I’m wondering, how serious were those talks and how do you think you would have done in a fight like that moving up in weight?
HAGLER: Well basically there was nothing in the light heavyweights, anyway, at that time. Now the light heavyweight division looks a lot better than it did in many years since you had guys like Roy Jones who kind of controlled that light heavyweight division, because really, it was always a weak division. My division in the middleweight division was a very tough division when you talk about the guys that we’re talking about right now. The light heavyweights, there wasn’t much. As far as Michael Spinks was concerned, we should have fought him in the amateurs back in the AAU years ago. So I don’t feel as though that at that time, that I was putting on fifteen pounds like these guys are doing today. If it was anything that was going to happen, I would have had him come down to my weight which would be 160. So that’s what happened in that area.
CIANI: Marvin, I’m just curious also, if you weren’t a boxer what do you think you would have done with your life?
HAGLER: Oh, it’s like mostly everybody else. You’re either going to be in crime or you’re going to be in jail somewhere doing something negative and nothing positive, you know what I mean. I think boxing was the best thing that ever happened to me to give me an outlook on life and also it was my best teacher. I mean it educated me in so many ways in being able to help other people in the world today by my name and what I’ve done. Like my website, I got my website going where I’m talking with a lot of people over the air. I’m doing a lot of charity work which is for my Marvelous Marvin Hagler Scholarship Fund in Brockton. I’m helping those kids, about 2,000 kids that we’re able to send to school to college. This is something that I’m able to do which is great. I’m working another charity thing which is the Laureus Sport for Good Foundation with other athletes all around the world. I mean Boris Becker, Edward Moses, Martina Navratilova and all these people. I’m like the 43rd member of that group and we help all these people from the foreign countries and everything. It’s really surprising and I’m enjoying what I’m doing this way.
JENNA: Alright Marvin, now speaking of things that you’re doing, last time we had you on the show you mentioned a product you had out there. It’s called “Simply Marvelous”. I was wondering if you could tell the fans a little bit more about that product?
HAGLER: It’s doing great and also my t-shirts. I mean we did good for Father’s Day and now we got Christmas and all these holidays that are going to be coming up again. Valentine’s Day was a great thing for me. Also my t-shirts, Marvelous Marvin Hagler t-shirts, that’s been doing really well on my website. So I’m very happy to plug that there because it keeps me active. I mean this is going all over the world. Another fact about England is England’s been one of my best sellers. I mean so I thank them a lot. It’s not for the money, but it keeps your face out there you know what I mean, in front of your public.
JENNA: Now your product is “Simply Marvelous”. Do you have anything else there, like a one-liner like you were doing a commercial?
HAGLER: You know what I told you. It’s “Simply Marvelous”. (laughs) It smells good so I tell you, I wear it all the time myself. So if I could wear that then anybody else would love to wear it.
JENNA: I have just two more questions for you Marvin. When boxing fans look back at your career, they rank you up there in the top 50 fighters of all time, but one of the fights that they talk about the most is your fight with Tommy ‘The Hitman’ Hearns. It’s been named one of the 30 greatest fights ever. Looking back at it and to let the fans know a little bit more, what do you think about that bout and the way that it was fought?
HAGLER: Well you know it surprises me, because if I go to the shopping store or whatever when I’m walking around or whatever, everybody is looking at me and everybody is talking to me about that fight just like it happened yesterday. I can’t get away from it myself. I mean the people are saying, ‘Oh! That right hand shot!’ and people bring me back into that fight again. I thought it was a great fight. I’m glad with the outcome because I finally gained the recognition that I won it. Like I said, it was the highlight of my career but it’s not only those fights. I mean a lot of people walk around talking about the Leonard fight and whatever. I mean how long, 22 years or whatever I’ve been outside the ring and people bring you back just like it was yesterday. It’s a funny thing.
JENNA: Yeah it certainly is, but you know that’s the impact you’ve had on boxing there. You gave boxing fans many great fights.
HAGLER: Well it’s great to talk with the people about the boxing. It’s not like some people you want to shut yourself off or whatever. No. I enjoy that the people who really know anything about boxing, they catch my ear. Some people talk a bunch of junk sometimes, too, who don’t know anything about boxing. They just have seen it. A fortunate thing that happens to me right now is when I got young kids who come up to me and say, ‘Me and my father, my father sat me down to watch your fights and I think you’re one of the greatest’. Then when I’m doing all this fan mail, which I have to do tonight, too, to autograph all these things and whatever and send them out to all these people. They all speak very respectfully so that’s why I don’t mind. Some of these things bring you back, too. So I enjoy it. Again it gives me an opportunity to stay in touch with my fans.
JENNA: Great, well my final question does involve the fans. Is there anything you want to say to all the boxing fans out there, your fans, and the listeners of On the Ropes Boxing Radio?
HAGLER: (laughs) I don’t know. Listen, just stay with The Marvelous One inside and outside the ring. I love you all and thank you very much for staying in there with me. It was a tough road but we made it to the top and we want to stay that way, not just inside the ring but outside the ring as well.
JENNA: Well it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show, Marvin. You’re entertaining as always.
HAGLER: It’s great to be back.
JENNA: Thank you. Thank you. It was great having you on.
HAGLER: Thank you.
JENNA: It was great having you on. We wish you the best of luck with all of your future endeavors and I hope our listeners out there go buy some “Simply Marvelous” cologne out there.
HAGLER: “Simply Marvelous”! (laughs)
JENNA: Alright Marvin, well it’s been a pleasure again. Thank you for sharing your time with us on the show and talking out there to the fans.
HAGLER: Thank you very much, too
CIANI: Thank you, Marvin.
HAGLER: Okay, buddy. Bye bye!
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For those interested in listening to the Marvelous Marvin Hagler interview in its entirety, it begins approximately one hour and one minute into the program.
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To learn more about Hagler’s cologne “Simply Marvelous” please visit his website at http://www.marvelousmarvin.com/
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