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De Lima I.

Good article

Posted August 21, 2014 11:14 am 


My own top ten list is similar. Although I think that Julio Cesar Chavez deserved a spot in the lightweight or walterweight list. He still holds the longest winning streak until his draw against Whitaker (I do admit he lost that one) and the longest undefeated streak in history. Most title fights. Most title victories. Most title fights won by ko. He’s an all time great and deserves a spot on this list. Not as a top 10 p4p but as a lightweight.

Posted January 19, 2013 1:06 am 


So Mike Tyson loses (twice) against an older Evander Holyfield and Tyson is listed as an ATG? What rubbish. Mike Tyson is the most overrated fighter ever in boxing. People love to talk about a ‘prime’ Mike Tyson. When exactly was this guy prime? For 4 fights? Was he not ‘prime’ when he lost to Buster Douglas? Aside from an ageing Larry Holmes, Tyson lost every fight he ever had against a top class contender. Ridiculous.

Posted August 21, 2012 1:58 am 

Red Ryan

Its not silly to think Mayweather had a chance against Leonard!!

Posted August 20, 2012 8:56 pm 

Red Ryan

Wheres Marquez at lightweight and James Toney at Middle!!!!!

Posted August 20, 2012 8:52 pm 

Blah Blah Blah

Why mention all the non heavyweight stats man? Its pretty simple. Name these great eastern bloc heavyweights who would have been world pro champions in the 1952 – 1980 period. Its convenient you left the 1952 and 1956 American champions from your ” list ” :roll:

The Soviets were at the Helsinki and Melbourne Olympics . America won the heavyweight gold at both games.

Once again NAME THESE GREAT EASTERN EUROPEAN HEAVYWEIGHTS who werent allowed to turn pro . The K bros are anomalies. Look at Potevkin LOL

Posted August 16, 2012 11:16 pm 

Blah Blah Blah

Chavez held the alphabet version of the 135 pound title for 18 months . Duran was the world lightweight champion for 6 years. Duran didnt even fight at 140 , he went straight up to 147. Compare Durans resume to Chavez. Frankie Randall isnt Tommy Hearns , Ray Leonard , Marvin Hagler or even Iran Barkley. Duran was competitive against middleweights. Chavez was smashed by Kostya Tszyu who while a very good fighter is hardly the 154 lb Thomas Hearns. You know very little about the sport paisan.

Posted August 16, 2012 11:11 pm 

Blah Blah Blah

Its not the survey-voters fault that California has never produced a great heavyweight Tumbo. Ken Norton and Jerry Quarry hardly compare to the greatest East Coast – Mid West and southern heavyweights. Ali was a southerner. Louis was from Detroit. Bowe and Tyson are New Yorkers. Foreman is Texan. Frazier was from North Carolina. Tunney was a east coaster. Holmes was from Ohio. Holyfield is from Georgia. Marciano was from Brockton. Liston was from Arkansa. Floyd Patterson was born in the deep south and moved to New York as a kid. As usuaul you have no idea. Have a nice day :lol:

Posted August 16, 2012 11:04 pm 

Blah Blah Blah

Make all the excuses you like Bears. Wlad LOST to Purrity and LOST to Brewster. Both were CLUB FIGHTER TYPE OPPONENTS who were coming off losses and who could hardly be called world class. Kali Meehan nearly defeated Lamont. Cliff Ettienne did. Brewster the hardest punching heavyweight in history? LMFAO Why ? Because he flattened Wlad ? Answer my points man. Name one world class heavyweight who had a ranking that Lamont defeated. While youre at it name one Sanders beat. You talk about ” gassing ‘ as though its a legitimate excuse. Having stamina is part of being a great fighter .

Posted August 16, 2012 10:57 pm 

Blah Blah Blah

How can you say Barrera should be on the list when Pac knocked him out in one round ? Im no Pac fan but he did beat MAB twice.

Posted August 16, 2012 10:52 pm 

Blah Blah Blah

Floyd was rocked by a 40 year old former lightweight in Shane Mosely , Tumbo. He also lost to Castillo at 135 despite what the judges said.You really think he would beat a prime Robinson, Leonard or Hearns two out of three? He wouldnt even fight them as you know :twisted: If you do believe that then youre even stupider than your reputation suggests. Have a nice day . :lol:

Posted August 16, 2012 10:51 pm 

te tumbo

Btw, no Marquez? Klitschkos? Barrera? Holyfield? Morales? with the exception of the recently underperforming “Adventures of Pacman*!” series, the “knowledge”(?) of these individuals stops at around 1990. some of boxing’s very best have emerged since then.

Posted August 16, 2012 2:05 pm 

te tumbo

i’ve been reading about this process with anticipation regarding its predictable outcome: another sentimental “expert” list embedded with east-coast bias. these old boys actually turn Duran into a patronizing insult. Btw, what’s with their abiding resentment of Julio Cesar Chavez? because he lacked the sinister flair of Duran? so what? he was definitely a better lightweight and at least as good a welter. same with Floyd Mayweather. IMO, nobody on that light or welter list could hang with Floyd 2/3. eSPECially Pacquiao* whose inclusion is the most Damning testament to this popularity contest posing as a “historical survey”. it’s what happens when you invite “extremely knowledgeable individuals” to nudge, push, and shove their subjective agendas on to the rest of us, e.g., Pacquiao* but no Floyd and no Chavez? historical revision survey is more like it.

Posted August 16, 2012 1:55 pm 


Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever). If you read my posts you will see I dont have a problem with the Klits brothers , I have the problem with you !! You always think what you say is correct and if anyone dare to disagree you resort to been offensive. You need to understand that people will have opinions and just because they dont agree with yours it doesnt mean they are wrong !!!!! You are a very narrow minded person . My time is over on here lol

Posted August 16, 2012 12:24 pm 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)


Posted August 15, 2012 8:34 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

Hah, typical rant from a desperate nazi btch AKA KlichKO hater. Nice try bum. Quit whining and Go find a job now. :)

Posted August 15, 2012 8:31 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

Hmm, let’s actually check it how US athletes performed at the Olympic Games (= the only major place where they could meet Eastern-Europeans):
1960: Italy wins at heavyweight, South Africa 2nd, Soviet bloc 3rd.
Soviet Bloc wins 3x more medals than the USA.
1964: USA (·Joe Frazier) wins a close decision at heavyweight, Soviet Bloc 3rd.
USSR+Poland win 6x more gold medals than the USA.
Soviet bloc wins everything from middleweight to featherweight
1968: USSR wins the most Gold medals.
USA (·George Foreman) wins at heavyweight. Soviet bloc 2nd.
1972: Cuba wins at heavyweight. Soviet Bloc 2nd
1976: Cuba wins at heavyweight. Soviet Bloc 2nd
1980: USA boycotts the games. Cuba wins at heavyweight. Soviet Bloc 2nd
—- Superheavyweight Division is established 201+ lbs —-
1984: Soviet Bloc boycotts the games. USA wins a record 9 gold medals.
1988: Canada (·Lennox Lewis) wins at superheavyweight
1992: Cuba, Germany, Italy win everything from superheavyweight to light-welterweight
1996: Soviet Bloc (·Wladimir Klitschko) wins at superheavyweight.
Cuba and Soviet Bloc win everything from superheavyweight to middleweight
2000: Great Britain (·Audley Harrison) wins at superheavyweight, Soviet Bloc 2nd.
Cuba (·Felix Savon) wins at heavyweight, Soviet Bloc (·Sultan Ibragimov) 2nd.
Cuba and Soviet Bloc win everything from heavyweight to bantamweight.
2004: Soviet Bloc (·Alexander Povetkin) wins at superheavyweight, Cuba (·Odlanier Solis) wins at heavyweight, Soviet Bloc 2nd.
2008: Italy wins at superheavyweight, Soviet Bloc (·Rakhim Chakhkiev) wins at heavyweight

Sorry, I see absolutely no dominance (USA > Soviet Bloc) here, especially since Cuba was actually part of the Soviet Bloc. Thus the only major place where the US actually competed against the Soviet bloc (= at Olympics) the US boxers were far from dominant in the last 50+ years.

Now, I actually don’t care too much about Olympic Boxing (since it’s a different sport than pro boxing). But this argument (“USA always ruled over Soviet Bloc boxers thus this era sucks as witness by the sudden lack of US dominance”) pops up from time to time, thus I needed to address it here.

In reality the US pro-boxers never “ruled over the Soviet bloc” because they hardly ever faced professional East-Bloc’ers.

Add to it that they hardly ever fought OUTSIDE of the US and you see that the 50ies-70ies are mainly consisting of “locals fighting locals” and thus the “era of the Greats” was rather the “era of the States”. Some went even so far as to claim that it wasn’t the “1970ies heavyweight division” but the “1970ies heavyweight illusion”.

That Soviets weren’t allowed to compete in pro boxing was a political decision of the Soviet bloc. As soon as borders opened US boxers got dethroned.

Posted August 15, 2012 8:22 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

@jaw. Now tell me you are not a nazi btch! KLICHKOS ARE TOO WHITE AND TO SOVIET FOR YOU TO RESPECT THEM. Gtfoh you Nazi troll, I hate Nazism and racism.

Posted August 15, 2012 8:20 am 

Blah Blah Blah

If you think light fly , super fly , superbantam and super featherweight are legit necessary weight classes then I feel sorry for you man.

Posted August 15, 2012 5:47 am 

Blah Blah Blah

Change your name to ” The Voice of Idiocy ” man. Far more suitable. :twisted:

Posted August 15, 2012 5:45 am 

Blah Blah Blah

Its spelled ” Losers ” dude. Ali faced EVERY good heavyweight between 1963 and 1980 dude. He didnt need to get his older brother to rematch fighters who beat him unlike Wlad Klit. Joe Louis level of opposition flat out sucked compared to Ali.

Posted August 15, 2012 5:34 am 

Wlad Klitscho’s Glass Jaw

Do any of you people have any idea about boxing. Havent you heard of the Norton vs Foreman fight , Bears ? Foreman defended his undisputed heavyweight title twice. Joe King Roman in Tokyo and against Norton in Caracas , Venezuela . Neither Klitschko has EVER defended the UNDISPUTED heavyweight title .

Posted August 15, 2012 5:21 am 

Wlad Klitscho’s Glass Jaw

Boxing is an art and a trade unlike sports like say American Football. Soccer ( Football ) as you call it is like boxing. Pele or Diego Maradonna would be as good now as they were in their heyday. You sir are an idiot.

Posted August 15, 2012 5:19 am 

Wlad Klitscho’s Glass Jaw

Wlad Klitschko was kayoed by the glacially slow clubfighter Ross Purrity. Purritty wouldnt have beaten Ali with a knife . Using your logic Ali is greater than Wlad . Have a nice day …

Posted August 15, 2012 5:17 am 

Wlad Klitscho’s Glass Jaw

Amateur communist bloc fighters were grown adult men who had their training equipment , wages etc paid by the state. American heavyweight amateurs were invariably young kids aged in their late teens – early twenties. In the west heavyweight turned pro for the money. Name one Russian or Eastern bloc amateur heavyweight from the 1952- 1984 period who would have won a heavyweight world pro title , Bill. Even Teo Stevenson was a robotic , straight up n down one two puncher with good height and reach. Hed have been no certainty of being a great pro. Many other Cuban heavyweights have failed at pro boxing. Wlad himself needed to get an American trainer to learn the proper basics of self defence.

Posted August 15, 2012 2:00 am 

Wlad Klitscho’s Glass Jaw

Lets examine Bills comment. Since 1948 there have been 17 heavyweight or super heavyweight gold medallists. All have been open to Communist bloc – East European fighters. The USA has won 5. Ed Sanders , Pete Rademacher , Joe Frazier , Geoerge Foreman and Tyrell Biggs . When the cold war was at its peak and the US government was heavily funding amateur boxing ie the period between 1952 and 1984 the USA won 5 out of 9 heavyweight gold medals. Cuba’s Teofilio Stevenson won three himself and Italian Franco DiPicolli won his home games in 1960. Not one Russian – Ukranian – Pole or any East Europeans won the heavyweight olympic title.

Since 84 two eastern european fighters have won Super Heavyweight gold. Wlad and Alex Potevkin. Two Brits , A Canadian , another Cuban and another Italian have won Super Heavyweight glory in the 1988 – 2012 period.

I hope that helps show you what idiotic drivel you have been typing :lol:

Posted August 15, 2012 1:56 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

You know what Kenny, I do NOT believe in God, I’m a pragmatic. I don’t buy a bs about mythical strengths and ring knowledge of those Clays, Fraziers and other Foremans. For example, but I don’t think you’ll understand this, Clay had fast legs, was bouncing like a pingpong ball, ran scared in every fight like a rabbit, BUT THAT DID NOT PREVENT CLAY FROM GETTING HIS FACE POUNDED TO A PULP IN EVERY FIGHT. CLAY WAS RECEIVING 30-60 PUNCHES TO THE HEAD IN EVERY ROUND! So what are YOU talking about when speak about “ring knowledge” and all this stuff. The man got his brain damaged because of AWFUL DEFENSE. Literally he was a featherfisted bouncing PUNCHBAG with pathetic laughable REAL RESUME in 200+lbs division of 28-4 (9 ko’s!!!) THIS IS STATISTICAL FACT. How do you explain this??? I don’t think you can.

Posted August 14, 2012 10:12 pm 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

@Weldon. Did you write that current heavyweights have awful footwork compared to the 60s cruiserweights and 210 lbs fattened lightheavyweights? So you do think that Davey Ga ye has an awful footwork? VLADIMIR KLICHKO in your book obviously is also the one with an awful footwork…LOL! The best boxing trainer ever Emanuel Steward said many times that Vladimir’s footwork and balance are simply fantastic not only for a 6’6ft 249lbs man, but overall regardless his huge dimensions…

Posted August 14, 2012 9:35 pm 


He did not just report, he gave a rationale for holding down the klitschkos which u could put many on that list down for plus you could put many on that list like tyson for not even being champ long, frazier who did he beat and what did he do at championship level? Foreman on that list is a joke. Dude did nothing at championship level and could he even deffend his belt? If you put joe louis on there and all he beat was max shmelling, you gotta put the klitschkos in there too

Posted August 14, 2012 5:10 pm 


BEARS – actually, it was a good list. You cannot blame Geoffrey Ciani for reporting how the people voted.

Posted August 14, 2012 5:05 pm 


I have to admit that list is garbage at heayweight. Foreman himslef has said wlad klitschkois better than he was. Putting tyson, foreman, frazier (frazier you gotta be joking for what?) And foreman did nothing at championship level. Then putting tyson in their and who did he beat and how long did he reign? And ciani presides over this utter garbage detracting from the klitschkos by saying he can understand why their not top 10 yet deffend many of these top tens on the list??.!!! We all know wlad and vitaly would probably bea everyones ass on that list and the guy with the best shot to beat them is fellowsuper heavy great lennox lewis. Utter garbage jeff. You how badass the klitschkos and you need to convey hat message when you speak about them.

Posted August 14, 2012 4:41 pm 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

@Kenny Weldon. Boxing isn’t getting worse. That’s IMPOSSIBLE. You are writing BS. Every sport is evolving. EVERYTHING IS EVOLVING. You don’t say that a 60’s Ford Mustang is a better car, more durable, is faster, more comfortable car than 2012 Mercedes SL, do you? I understand that you are a nostalgist, but in terms of modern heavyweight division Cassy Clay sucks massively, if you are an expert you got to realize this fact. Clay is 28-4 (9 ko’s) in our current modern heavyweight division (200+lbs BOTH opponents). Does Clay’s REAL statistic looks impressive??? Actually it looks pathetic. Be a realist. Take off your pink tinted glasses. That bulked Light heavyweight Clay would have been murdered in modern REAL heavyweight division. Current big guys hit hard. it’s not Clay’s laughable 33% KO ratio…All the best

Posted August 14, 2012 9:56 am 


Why does Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever) says: , Not know how to spell his heros names !!!!!!!! I would have thought if you hero worship the Klits brothers you would at least know how to spell there names correctly . What a silly person who thinks only his opinon is right and wont listen to anyone elses . I wish this person along with a few others were banned from this site so real boxing fans could chat and debate without having to read the rubbish these idiots keep writing . My spare time is over byeee lol .

Posted August 12, 2012 2:05 pm 

Beer Party Movement

curtley: ‘Vitali Klitschko calls Ali the greatest yet you call him a feather fisted punchbag how do you exoplain that?’ well the Klitschko´s are very polite. I have also heard Wladimir say when he was asked if Ali was the greatest ‘ Ali was the greatest because of what he did outside the ring’
I dont think enyone are questioning ALi´s big impact on the sport, and his part in making hw pro boxing so popular. But no way is he the greatest ever.

Posted August 12, 2012 11:57 am 

Beer Party Movement

AD: well its the only measurable fact we have when doing this fantasy mix up. But the very best fighters of 35-40 years ago wouldnt do well against the very best fighters of today, because all athletes improve during time, boxing of today is a totaly different game just as soccer or baskeball is. And in Wladimir you have a huge boxer who are fast, precise and powerfull.

Posted August 12, 2012 11:46 am 

4×400 relay

Wlad and Vitali would have KO’d Ken Norton
and Ali had trouble with him several times.

Posted August 12, 2012 10:22 am 

4×400 relay

The voice of reason says it like it is!!
Ali fought a bunch of bums, stiffs and loosers. Nice list.
Reality hurts don’t it boys.
Joe Louis had a better Ko record.

Posted August 12, 2012 10:20 am 

B Red

my list since 1983 p4p in no particular order Ray Leonard, Floyd, Duran, Bhop, Roy,Pernell, Salvador,

Posted August 12, 2012 1:35 am 

B Red

Evander is also a 4 time HW champ, and the greatest crusier weight of all time

Posted August 12, 2012 1:27 am 

B Red

Bruce, I think Evander Holyfield should replace him

Posted August 12, 2012 1:16 am 

B Red

yeah your absolutly correct…… Shane is mos def top ten best lightweight period, ya dig

Posted August 12, 2012 1:11 am 


There is no competition nowadays moron Vor W woulld not last
two nminutes of round one of a prime Joe Frazier Foreman, Ali or

Posted August 11, 2012 10:46 pm 


If people are going to push the Klitschko case by saying that they are bigger than the previous generations etc then that is okay I can understand the logic. That same logic would then need to extend to the current day. If you are going to place such a premium on size meaning a lot vs past greats, it needs to mean a lot vs current fighters – e.g. it is like saying the K-Bros are only winning due to their size.

Posted August 11, 2012 9:40 pm 


I just looked again, what about Sweet Pea?

Boy, these types of lists are difficult.

I still can’t put the Klitschkos, especially Wlad, because it could be argued that they aren’t even fighting top ten heavyweights every time out. While I think Vitali could have been a GOAT, he has just been too inactive and losses to Byrd and Lewis regardless of the conditions were losses; they weren’t bad/controversial decisions.

Posted August 11, 2012 8:40 pm 


While everyone is arguing that the Klitschkos are GOATS, which is really an absurd argument, I completely overlooked that Shane Mosley isn’t included with the Lightweights. He was undefeated and had the highest KO percentage of all time before moving up to welterweight. Steroid controversy aside, mainly because we don’t know how many of these fighters used, Shane was really special at 135. I’d have him near the bottom of the list.

I think Shane suffers from the “fought too long against bigger guys” analysis that Evander and Roy Jones experienced.

What do you guys think?

Posted August 11, 2012 8:35 pm 

el feo

julio cesar chavez not on the list?b/s list!

Posted August 11, 2012 5:45 pm 


B Red – I’m inclined to agree that Mike Tyson doesn’t belong in the top ten. Question is, who should replace him?

Posted August 11, 2012 5:25 pm 

B Red

Mike Tyson should not be ranked in the top ten Hw’s

Posted August 11, 2012 2:55 pm 

Blah Blah Blah

George Foreman in his 40s did well in the ” Modern Heavyweight Era ” Holyfield rates him the hardest hitter he faced. Ali kayoed him. None of these ” Modern Heavyweights did. Vitali is also a proven steroid user. Some kind of greatest … :roll:

Posted August 11, 2012 8:59 am 

Blah Blah Blah

Wlad was dropped three times vs Peter I should have said.

Posted August 11, 2012 8:56 am 

Blah Blah Blah

Watch the Bonavena fight Voice of Idiocy. Ali had a brilliant left hook. He hit Frazier with four in a row in their first fight. He dropped the iron chinned Bonavena with one left hook. Frazier never dropped Oscar at all. You people have NO IDEA. Vitali basically hid in Germany with his WBO belt fighting bums. Hes faced two good fighters and both beat him. Ali won his biggest fights . The Klitschkos didnt. Even Wlad v Haye was a sleep walk. Hardly Ali v Frazier .

Posted August 11, 2012 8:55 am 

the voice of reason

i totally agree with bill in his assessments here. Both klitschko brothers should be in the top ten without a shadow of a doubt. Make that the top five. These two guys are just incredible fighters with equally incredible records. How they are so under appreciated is amazing – but just goes to show how ignorant people are of the facts of boxing

As for ali – for what he had, he did incredibly well. The man had two punches – a left jab and a right cross and thats it – no uppercut to speak of and when it did come it was very inept – and he never threw a body punch in his whole career. What he did have was a great boxing brain, speed and slipperiness. He laboured against very ordinary fighters who wouldnt last 2 minutes today and I think his success speaks more for the era he was in which wasnt as strong as people with nostalgia-tinted glasses seem to realize. I think ali would struggle badly in todays era

Posted August 11, 2012 8:12 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

My free time is off. I am a working man and don’t have that much time for these discussions with clay fanclub of stupid nostalgists.

Posted August 11, 2012 8:04 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

Lad, LOL, YOU ARE CLEARLY A LOYAL FANBOY OF THE US LOCAL CHAMP CLAY. Fraziers REAL HW RESUME IS AROUND 13-4 (5 KO’S). HE IS A BUM. You are a member of a Clay agenda. He was ALL HYPE, no REAL STRENGTH. Clay agenda sucks! End of discussion.

Posted August 11, 2012 8:00 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

Hah, EASY. What Vit or anyone says about Clay is irrelevant. He was a very weak 200+lbs boxer. “greatest” means NOTHING. The only thing that matters is the BEST or the STRONGEST Real HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER. 28-4 (9 KO’S) CLEARLY SAYS CASSY CLAY WAS A FEATHERFISTED PUNCHBAG WITH AWFUL DEFENSE AND WEAKEST PUNCH EVER. End of discussion. It’s not a rocket science. Clay would have been slaughtered in modern heavyweight era. If you are a Clay fan I think it’s pointless to explain you these things, you are a blind nostalgist. :) All the best.

Posted August 11, 2012 7:51 am 


Vitali Klitschko calls Ali the greatest yet you call him a feather fisted punchbag how do you exoplain that?

Posted August 11, 2012 7:02 am 


Bill I know that you are totally focussed on spouting Klitschko propaganda and that is about all you ever post (in fact I have never even seen you post about other fighters) but no matter how much it irks you the general consensus by boxing experts and knowlegable fans is pretty much the same as these lists and the K bros for all their excellence will never be held in the esteem as the ATG’s this is not because they are not excellent, they are. The one simple fact is that the Sanders, Brewster and Purity losses over a fresh Wlad and Vitali quitting vs Byrd are somthing that would not have happened to the very best. Sure Ali lost vs a beast in Frazer (who whether you like it or not is far superior to Wlads conquerers) and lost a few when totally past it and Louis lost to Schmelling who he later wiped out. Ali and co would have never lost to Purity, Sanders and Brewster and would never have quit also Vitali admitted to steroid use for which I admire his honesty but a cheat is a cheat.

Posted August 11, 2012 6:54 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

Welldone wrote that Clay is better than KlichKO?!! How the fk a 28-4 (9 ko’s) featherfisted punchbag (Clay, and it’s his REAL RESUME IN HW DIVISION, BOTH BOXERS ARE 200+LBS) could be even possibly better than Vladimir KlichKO who has SIXTY ONE REAL HEAVYWEIGHT FIGHT and lost only three (by far THE BEST EVER ACHIEVEMENT in heavyweight division)…Plus VK is THE BEST KTFO ARTIST EVER. 51 KTFOs out of the 58 wins! Plus, he has beaten more unbeaten or only once beaten REAL heavyweights than any past champion. All the best!

Posted August 11, 2012 6:48 am 

Bill (KlichKO brothers are the best REAL HEAVYWEIGHTS ever)

I’ve always said this p4p sht is for idiots. ONLY A STUPID DREAMER IN ROSE TINTED GLASSES, LIVING IN A MICKEY MOUSE WORLD, WILL BE COMPILING THIS POINTLESS SUBJECTIVE AND TOTALLY BIASED LISTS OF BOXERS FROM DIFFERENT WEIGHT CLASSES. What’s the point, I mean, A midget is a midget and a heavyweight is a heavyweight. Quit dreaming lads, you’re big boys already! :) p.s. K.Welldone is a delusional oldman, living in the past. His words mean nil.

Posted August 11, 2012 6:29 am 

the voice of reason

kenny weldon – i respect your achievements but i too have been involved with boxing for 40 years and my conclusion differs

of heavyweights weighing 210 up, unless they are super skilled like holyfield/byrd who sometimes weighed slightly less, then the weight factor is not so much of an issue cos a man weighing over 210lb is a big man anyway, and if his opponent is 245 then through skill and knowledge the weight differential can be resolved

however we are talking men like marciano/dempsey who weighed well under 200lb – in fact they were light heavyweights. Light heavyweights kenny CANNOT compete at top level with men over 210lb. the weight difference really does make a difference. Never in history has a light heavyweight defeated a top heavyweight if he remained at his fighting weight. The only times they have prevailed is when they have bulked up themselves – jones/spinks/byrd/toney – but these were very special cases. bob foster is a prime example – a man who ruled the light heavys with eae but was obliterated by ali and frazier when he moved up

your argument could then be – ok, what if marciano/dempsey bulked up to over 205lb, then they would prevail. Wrong again – both mens styles were totally wrong if they wanted to fight heavyweights. jones/byrd/spinks/toney were super gifted boxers, slippery as eels. Marciano and dempsey were not much more than face first sluggers. i submit to you that neither fighter would make the top 100 if he were around today.

im not putting them down as fighters cos both men were great fighters – but of their (far weaker) time and in LOWER WEIGHT DIVISIONS. Why they keep getting reffered to as heavyweights is beyond me. And please, dont bring up the likes of jess willard/luis firpo etc as examples of how dempsey handled bigger men. if you are a knowledgable man you will know willard/firpos true levels in the scheme of things

it aggravates me cos there are far more deserving men who should be recognized for their achievements. Holyfield for sure – its inconcievable that he is not on this list. Holyfield would have decimated marciano/dempsey and johnson on the same night. As would bowe, as would a list of others including ibeabuchi/tua/morrison/mercer/klitschkos/brewster and dozens more. come on man, you must see this

Posted August 11, 2012 5:08 am 


Just a terrific piece of work! Really terrific!

I think Jones should be on the list at 175. I’m a younger fan, but in my lifetime Jones was the most dominant and clearest P4P fighter of his era. After his loss, b-hop moved in and then a close loss to Taylor gave it to Floyd and then Floyd’s inactivity gave it to Manny but Jones did dominate. Can’t be much higher than 9 or 10 because he refused to go to Poland or travel to fight Darius (which he would have won…much like floyd in a way)

Evander should be on there for heavy. He was great at Heavy up to the third fight with Bowe and his career at Cruiser was one of the best and the Cruiser weight limit puts him at the size of some of the early greats. Any way you slice it, still a great survey. Lots of fun. Thank you.

Posted August 11, 2012 3:31 am 


When I read these lists, I remind myself that they are subjective, i.e., there are no objective criteria by which voters are required to adhere. Nonetheless, when i read the heavyweight list, I am simply astonished that these voters are considered to be experts. For example, I am hard pressed to believe that Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano could have lasted 3:00 minutes with Lennox Lewis, Larry Holmes, Muhammed Ali, or Evander Holyfield. Of course, in their respective eras, they were tough; however, this is an “all time” list. I doubt that they’d be rated top 10 in the current heavyweight rankings, and this is not exactly the golden age of heavyweight boxing.

In another example, it is absurd to suggest that Roy Jones, Jr., is not a top 10 rated light heavyweight. Are these voters suggesting that Billy Conn would have beaten Roy Jones, Junior? Do they really believe that Roy Jones, Junior, could not have beaten Bob Fitzsimmons? Now, if one wanted to discuss whether RJJ selectively chose to fight (or not fight) certain fighters, then that’s absolutely true. It doesn’t change the fact that RJJ was a freak of nature as a physical talent and that, in his prime, these guys would not have beaten him.

Now, some might take issue with the fact that Floyd Mayweather, Jr., is not on the list. Actually, that makes sense. I would speculate that, across voters, it is agreed that Floyd is considered to be an exceptionally talented fighter; however, he has not taken a tough challenge since Jose Luis Castillo. His opponents have been over the hill, or never even got up the hill for that matter. In contrast, at 147, the prime Sugar Ray Leonard duked it out with the best of the best, and he is an example par excellence of “all time P4P.”

Posted August 10, 2012 9:56 pm 


That is not true if size was a factor of skill and speed then what is the point of having weight classes in boxing. fact proven i seen real working professional light heavy weights and cruser weights.. with more speed and skill then i seen from proffesionals like, manny pacquiao, juan manuel marquez and even bernard hopkins so size is not a factor the harder you traying that easier it is to beat any one.

Posted August 10, 2012 9:14 pm 

Beer Party Movement

Still if you ask non-americans the list would look very different. :cool:

Posted August 10, 2012 6:00 pm 

KnucKled Eye

I guess it’s all prespective. From a size prespective you are 100% correct, noway a 6’2, 205-210 Louis beats L Lewis or either of the Klits. But if you look at it from a skill prespective the list is pretty decent. How guys dominated a division or had long win strikes, that today are unheard of should factor into the construction of the list , as should level of oppisition. Your logic , of which I agree is somewhat flawed. For example, todays top ten fighters are based on skill and level of oppisiton more than size. There is noway you can argue that either of the Klits are more skilled than Manny or Floyd. But if Floyd was to get in the ring with the Klits he would be dropped the first time he’s hit with a jab. Another way to put it would be, if either Floyd or Manny were the same size as the Klits and pocessed the same skill level, they would win easily. That’s why the P4P list was created, to eliminate the size differential.

Posted August 10, 2012 5:39 pm 

the voice of reason

What a laugh this survey is. just shows you how uninformed and tunnel visioned people out there. Imagine the scenario please of the 185lb marciano or the 185lb dempsey going up against vitali or wladimir – or even a prime holyfield/bowe/tua etc. Jack johnson? an amateur! watch the old tapes again my friends, the evidence is all there. the man wouldnt make the top 100 if he were fighting today. Louis – a great cruiserweight in an era of exceptionally weak and basic fighters – louis too, would have been obliterated by the top men of the last 20 years. Ali? oh please, give me a break! a great fighter for sure but nowhere near as wonderful as people make him out to be. but of course, its the automatic response from people when asked about heavyweight greats cos the media have brainwashed them into believing it. These lists are WORTHLESS.

Posted August 10, 2012 5:06 pm 

Beer Party Movement

But i see how it works for those americans feeling better with dreaming back to the time where their boxers dominated the hw division. When ever the Klitschko´s retires, im ready to cheer on the next great champion, no matter what country his from.

Posted August 10, 2012 5:00 pm 

Beer Party Movement

I like to know how many of the people participated in this survey were americans ? If you did such a survey with Ukrainians the hw list would surely look different. Or if it was based on brits opinion surely we would see calzaghe on the list.

Posted August 10, 2012 4:56 pm 


In that case we should put Robert Guerrero on the list. He has fought in 5 divisions…

Posted August 10, 2012 4:52 pm 



There are somethings more important that technique, such as heart and chin.

Posted August 10, 2012 4:42 pm 

KnucKled Eye

In my opinion Leonard has loses to Hearns, Hagler and of course he has a lose against Duran. SSR ‘s first 42 fights were’nt even recorded, that’s more fights than SRL’s entire career. SSR went 111-1 at one point as a welter. That is an accomplishment that will never be duplicated. There is a stronger argument for Henry Armstrong for top P4P than SRL. Your arguement is well noted due to the fact that SRL has more atg’s on his lists of victims than does SRR.

Posted August 10, 2012 4:01 pm 


PEDcquiao would need to stand on donaires shoulders just to punch Wlad in the head. P4P list is for midgets!

Posted August 10, 2012 3:23 pm 


Heavyweights is the KING division. Everyone else are small men who could cry in the ring against Wlad. Wlad would laug at both donaire and pac in the ring at the same time. They’re punches would be like mosquito bite.

Posted August 10, 2012 3:21 pm 


Yes, i noticed. It is great that finally these nazi fascists from the Slavic Union are out of this site.

Now, this site regained credibility again.

Posted August 10, 2012 2:35 pm 


I have always said that it takes between five and ten years to put a fighter’s career into its proper historical perspective. It is too soon to rate any active fighter. Hopkin’s big wins over Pavlik and Traver are still too fresh. Same with Jones’ devastating losses. Manny could surprise with back-to-back wins over Bradley and Floyd, or disappoint with further setbacks. Wongjongkam needs a final showdown with Naito to settle it once-and-for-all.

Next comes the Klitchschko brothers. They should never be considered as all-time greats without winning an Ali-Frazier or Foreman-Lyle type WAR. For all their advantages, they fight with a safety-first mind set. We want our heavyweights to fight like predators with a search and destroy mentality. Have our expectations fallen so far that we accept a 12-0 decision when we want crushing knockouts?

And finally…hey Mix, no one put a gun to LaLonde’s head. His decision to come in at 168 didn’t look so dumb when Leonard was on the canvas or sitting on his stool with his face bloodied. LaLonde wanted two belts just as much as Leonard did.

Posted August 10, 2012 12:53 pm 


Mix – Ray Leonard never “made his own rules”. Marvin Hagler never had to agree to the requests made by Sugar Ray’s lawyers; that the ring be bigger, that they use bigger gloves, that the scheduled distance was 12 rounds. It’s called NEGOTIATING. Hagler could have said, “Nothing doing, I’m the belt holding champion and any title fight will be done on my terms.” Ray Leonard brought a great deal of money to the bargaining table and that was highly tempting to Marvin, so he chose to listen to what 99% of the boxing press predicted: a piece of cake for Hagler.

Posted August 10, 2012 12:42 pm 


I agree with Roy Jones jr making the list for LHW. He laid waste to the division as undisputed champ and was only the 3rd LHW to gain the LHW and HW titles.

Posted August 10, 2012 12:34 pm 


I just don’t see Hopkins that high. And not seeing Mayweather with his weak resume was spot on. RJJ should have made lightheavyweight. Prime for prime, how many on that list beat RJJ? :?:

Posted August 10, 2012 11:51 am 


They need to make a weight climbers list like this. Being able to climb weights is a highly overlooked talent. For example, Hearns had problems with Ray and Haglar, but neither Ray nor Haglear could climb weights and be as successful as Heanrs was. This man won titles from WW to CW, but this accomplishment doesn’t get spoken about much. Roy Jones jr won titles from MW to HW, and the only reason we talk about it is because he won the HW title. Had he only went up to CW winning titles we woudln’t say much about it. I think for so great an accomplishment it is to climb weights and still win, it’s a very overlooked accomplishment.

Posted August 10, 2012 11:51 am 

Bayamon, Puerto Rico

I never mentioned anything about the word perfection. I mentioned the word mechanical.It is customary for schools to teach people to overthink and overanalyze things which is why Einstein was labeled as a failure by his teachers because he refused to overanalyze things and he looked at the universe in a spontaneous way..We are so use to seeing the same old boxers in the rankings that it has become mechanical,uninteresting ,unimaginative and routine.There needs to be more human spontaneity and less mechanical overanalyzing when compiling these lists.

Posted August 10, 2012 11:03 am 

Neil (pomy)

Hello dude

Posted August 10, 2012 11:03 am 

Ruslan Pateev

All in all it`s not a bad list.

Posted August 10, 2012 10:46 am 


An excellent list, for the most part, I agree. Let me cite my 3 areas of disagreement: I feel that Larry Holmes never could have gotten by Lennox Lewis if both were at their peak. The great Archie Moore would have had a very hard time getting by Michael Spinks. I also feel that Bernard Hopkins would have beaten Marvin Hagler. Otherwise, a well-thought article.

Posted August 10, 2012 10:39 am 

Neil (pomy)

Yep Tony, Stalker was robbed ….. but my hometown fight (Luke Campbell) did well getting to the final. The Irishman looked great against the Cuban though. Britain-v-Ireland in the final – may the best man win.

Posted August 10, 2012 10:16 am 


Neil, I don’t think they can handle Ali @ #1 and Louis @ 2. But then again, by definition, they can’t handle very much. Congrats to the Brits for doing so well. I think Stalker was actually robbed though.

Posted August 10, 2012 9:57 am 



Posted August 10, 2012 9:55 am 

Neil (pomy)

Anyone noticed how the number of white-supremists on ESB has been reduced since the change in format? …. some good has come out of it afterall.

Posted August 10, 2012 9:50 am 

Neil (pomy)

Well it was for the vacant WBC 168-lb title ……. LaLonde 175-lb title was on the line aswell (which was weird)

Posted August 10, 2012 9:49 am 


Ray Leonard made his own rules. Remeber the Donny LaLonde fight for the WBC 175lb title, when he made Donny come in @ under 168lb. Or the Hagler fight when he extended the size of the ring & cut the rounds from 15 to 12 ? “There was only ever 1 Sugar Ray & his name was Robingson”!

Posted August 10, 2012 9:35 am 


I’m sick and tired of the wrong sugar ray being at the top of these sort of lists. Robinson was an exceptional fighter who had a very long successful career despite the rumours of him avoiding certain challengers.Leonard had a very short career by comparison however he ‘shone’ so brightly during this time fighting and beating every fighter around including fellow greats Hearns, Duran, Benitez and Hagler. I have the career dvd sets of both men and am of similar age to Leonard and I really do feel that a prime welterweight Leonard would beat a prime welterweight Robinson. The opposite has been trotted out so often that otherwise intelligent people sheepishly repeat it without really questioning the validity of it. The only category that Robinson outdo’s Leonard on is longevity, in my book that is simply not enough to take Robinson above Leonard. I’m hoping that writer’s and fans alike can stop acting like sheep and really consider why Robinson comes out on top of such lists (end of rant!!!)

Posted August 10, 2012 9:16 am 


No Wilfredo Gomez, no Chavez, no Mayweather… No good.

Posted August 10, 2012 8:15 am 

Neil (pomy)

agreed. one world champion and 16-weight divisions is proberbly the ideal situation.

Posted August 10, 2012 8:09 am 


I could well easily live with 16 weight divisions as long as there were just one World champion & no alphabet inter-continental, international, interim bauble.
& H/W all have a place in the sport.

Posted August 10, 2012 7:43 am 


great article!

Posted August 10, 2012 7:29 am 


What a shame that Salvador Sanchez never reached his true protencial. Azuma Nelson would have 100% made it into the Super Featherweight list. Shame he never fought Brian Mitchell or Barry McGuigan. Mitchell would have been a nightmare for him. styles make fights.

Posted August 10, 2012 6:30 am 

Neil (pomy)

It is all about opinions dude ….. you will never, ever get a list that will pleases everyone.

Posted August 10, 2012 6:21 am 

Bayamon,Puerto Rico

This article is typical, it is too robotic and overly mechanical in it`s thinking. The result is , that the rankings spit out mechanical responses like a computer. Marciano, was a great fighter, but he is ranked too high. Monzon was not the best MW and Pep was not better than Armstrong.

Posted August 10, 2012 6:14 am 


Agreed! Good article. However to be fair it should be seperated into Pre & post war. It would also be interesting to see Super Bantam, feather & Middleweights & Light Fly, Welter & Middleweight. There were some good fighters @ the in between weights, such as. Jack”Kid”Berg, Aaron Prior, Mike McCallum, Brian Mitchell, Jeff Fenech, Khaosai Galaxy, Nigel, Benn, Chris Eubank & Joe Calzaghe.

Posted August 10, 2012 5:14 am 


Now that was one hell of a good article. It will be interesting to see if Pacquaio, Mayweather and the K-brothers will get in once they have all retired.

Posted August 10, 2012 1:43 am 

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All Time Historical Survey Series Recap – The Original 8 Weight Classes & P4P

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