the spectacle of a presumably fierce and formidable puncher becoming a sloppy and inaccurate plodder always has a dramatic effect on judges and viewers alike. one assumes that it can’t be easy turning a determined Provodnikov into an impotent mess with nothing more than elusive talent and fundamentally-slick boxing skills but that’s the trick that Algieri turned at Ruslan’s expense. add the list of “withouts” that distinguish Algieri’s path to this bout and there’s no doubt that Algieri is at least equal to Provodnikov and demonstrably better.Posted June 19, 2014 12:35 am
In my view.. In this particular fight? I think 2 of the judges liked the local kid who seemed a clean cut studious type underdog. I mean, he’s not kid, he’s 30 years old. But experience wise, when they announce “with 20 victories and 0 defeats” it makes him seem very inexperienced… and him lacking any amateur fights makes it worse.
As the fight wore on you had to feel for Algieri, who seemed in WAY over his head and in mortal danger. His eye was swollen tightly shut by the end and looked ghastly — but he seemed to be getting a handle on things anyway. He’s one cool dude.
Sometimes even judges become fans and lose their objectivity in a dramatic situation. You start pulling for the local kid with the guts of a burglar.Posted June 18, 2014 10:46 pm
Sredmond lies.., “That said you are a TERRIBLE flip flopper and if Lara loses I wonder will it be “weight drain” “training” “climate” what excuses do you have prebooked???”
It could be the judges. They might be 3 old fart white guys from the 50s.
I did have Trout beating Canelo by one point, but I said it was a very close fight that could go either way. I score fights the traditional way – round by round. I don’t care what happened in a previous round. I concede that Canelo did more damage than Trout, and I don’t see the fight as a robbery. But the scoring was strictly te tumbo.
I’m not trying to build up Lara. If Canelo beats him it’s fine with me. My wallet may be a little lighter, but I doubt if I’ll lay a lot down – because of the judging situation. I have to wait and see how they both look at the weigh-in. If Lara doesn’t get screwed to the wall by the judges or gets knocked out legitimately it will be a great night for Mexico.
But I think Lara will be too slick and skilled for the rapidly improving Canelo.. Canelo has twice as many pro fights… but Lara has the vast amateur experience that exposed him to hundreds of opponents.. He was no Rigondeaux or Lomachenko, but he was damned good.. He’s also getting much better very swiftly, so his best days are ahead.
If he beats Canelo I hope he gets a Floyd fight.. He’d be a nightmare opponent — so I doubt it very seriously.Posted June 18, 2014 10:19 pm
everyone is missing the point. Ruslan could not finish what was effectively a one-eyed fighter who had 11 rounds to not only survive hut try and win the fight. Ruslan’s stock is severely diminished in many people’s eyes as what we saw was a one-dimensional fighter winging shots, getting caught, flat-footed without a plan B or the ability to close the show. The longer the fight went on the more one dimensional he appeared.
Can you imagine Danny Garcia, Lucas Matthysse, heck, even Adrien Broner failing to close the show on a one-eyed opponent. Yes, Algieri was teak-tough, but he was fighting blind from the very first round. Even if Algieri wasn’t stopped Ruslan should have dominated him in the manner he dominated Alvarado. This is the real issue.
A points win for Ruslan would have masked the issue that he could well be out of his depth vs the likes of Pac, Matthysse, Broner and Garcia. a good barometer would be to match him with Peterson and see who comes out the other side.
I was left feeling underwhelmed watching this so-called beast.Posted June 18, 2014 5:21 pm
Squared, don’t fall into that trap, brother
2 things: 1) I think a certain, antagonistic poster on the comment board suffers from a severe lack reading comprehension skills or
rewatched the fight. I like Chris, he boxed well and I think it was a close fight, don’t think it was close enough for him to win though.Posted June 18, 2014 12:13 pm
I don’t think Bradley I vs Pac Man was “homecooking” I think it was TERRIBLE judging, Manny has gotten plenty of close decisions… Alexander vs Kotelnik looked more like hometown judging he is FROM ST Louis and the bout took place in ST Louis…Reality is that everytime we disagree with judges it does not mean they are intentionally defrauding a fighter or there is something underhanded going on…Reality is that there was a compelling case for Algieri this is NOT Williams vs Lara where guys were suspended due to the GROSS nature of the decision rendered…Posted June 18, 2014 9:59 am
Squared Circle, the reality is that you are being a CONSPIRACY THEORIST because you don’t agree with the judges decision.. Had they ruled WILDLY for Algieri ie 118-109 I would have been like WTF??? but they saw the bout 114-112 if memory serves me which is indeed close… As far as “Anti Russian Sentiment” if you don’t believe that Provo can win in the US tell him to move back to Russia and see how that goes? FACT is that boxing is driven by $$$$$$ and marketability that’s why Ruslan got 750k and Algieri got 100k… HBO is behind Provo and he is the guy that would MOST likely be given “Breaks” if there were any to be had… AGAIN you are just SALTY…Posted June 18, 2014 9:43 am
Algieri didn’t benefit from any hometown decision. That is just ridiculous. I like the way when people say decisions were rigged for the only reason of that is not the fighter I picked to win. And then from there proceed to list the punch stat numbers to back up there claim that something dirty went on. Ridiculous.Posted June 17, 2014 11:06 pm
Joseph, that’s true…Posted June 17, 2014 9:01 pm
One of the most important things we should take from this fight was Provodnikov’s demeaner. He made no excuses, other than to call Algieri a runner, he said what we already knew, he has problems when a fighter doesn’t choose to stand and trade. Provo will always have a punchers chance in any fight but a crafty fighter can out point all day long.Posted June 17, 2014 8:56 pm
Tomato Can: “Trainers aren’t always right either.”
Yup…and they often disagree when faced with the same exact scenarioPosted June 17, 2014 8:52 pm
What’s up Squared Circle?!! Good to see you on the boards, brother!!
People shouldn’t try to discredit California based fight judge Max DeLuca…he is probably the most consistent and competent fight judge in the state.
A lot of people agreed with the way Mad Max saw the fight.
It comes down to what you prefer to see…the biggest quandary in scoring the fight was how infrequent Ruslan’s offensive output was compared to the more consistent workrate and ring generalship of Algieri.
But it was obvious that Ruslan’s punches had a much more damaging effect every time he decided to let his hands go.
That’s ultimately why the scorecards were all over the place for this fight.
But you really can’t say that either card was wrong.Posted June 17, 2014 8:50 pm
Trainers aren’t always right either. Back when Lou Duva was a trainer he would have mad a few “come on, man” highlights. Telling an exhausted meldrick Taylor to take the fight to Chavez Sr. in the twealth is probably what cost them the fight as well as the rest of Taylor’s career…. Of corse that’s only my opinion….Posted June 17, 2014 8:50 pm
Fans and commentators shouldn’t put too much credence in what trainers are telling their fighters in the corner between rounds.
Trainers know what “hot button” to push with each and every fighter they work with, and often will say whatever is necessary to get the job done and motivate their man.
I’ve spoken with several trainers that insist they don’t really have to say anything to certain fighters…their job is to keep their man refreshed and focused.Posted June 17, 2014 8:38 pm
Luke you are wrong, Floyd does have problems with his hands. Heck he brought someone in specifically because they wrapped hands well and were known to be able to protect hands.Posted June 17, 2014 7:12 pm
BoxtAnus don’t brag. Everyone knew Andrade had the talent to win a belt back in his ESPN2 days which weren’t that long ago. Your view on this was not unique.Posted June 17, 2014 6:11 pm
Freddy also knows when his boxer is letting things get too close, he told Chavez Jr he needed a KO and he told Manny during the 3rd fight you need to put this guy on his AZZ (Marquez) because he saw a close contest… He stated he felt Provo won (Its his fighter) but he also must have seen him dropping rounds and opening things up to interpretation/…During Provo’s fight with Bradley he admitted that he considered stopping it at certain points due to punishment…Freddy is a straight shooter ESPECIALLY during the course of a fight..Posted June 17, 2014 4:37 pm
Lion King, I am NOT a compubox guy BUT I have seen you and your cohort “Bears” reference that tool 1000 times when it suited your argument so your mentioning it tells me that you do see merit in Algieris punching…This notion that because Algieri is NOT a KO puncher that he cannot win fights against a slugger is BOGUS! if that’s the case then basically you are saying that Provo is a MAJOR cherrypicker because the history of both fighters suggests that the ONLY way that Chris had a shot was to outbox Provodnikov.. Reality is that despite not landing thudding blows, Algieri landed professional punches that are scoring, are we gonna discount jabs now when guys don’t like them? Paulie Malignaggi would NOT have had a career… As for a hometown decision first of all this was a lightly attended bout I live near the Barclays 6700 is not a sellout and the reality is that Algieri is a NOBODY, Paulie Malignaggi lost an S/D as Champion in that building and he was the Champion just like Provo (to Broner) The Magic Man is 1000000000 times more popular than Algieri who NOBODY knows!!! So thinking that the fix was in for a fighter who is not bankable does not fly that’s just sour grapes because you don’t like the way things turned out… Helenius getting a MAJOR gift in his native country against Chisora was what home cooking looks like…Posted June 17, 2014 4:08 pm
As for scoring I don’t understand the judge who basically gave Provodnikov a landslide victory and negated the work that Algieri did, its one thing to feel Provo earned the “W” as a judge its another to act like Algieri did nothing for the fight.Posted June 17, 2014 3:50 pm
Lion King, claiming that it was a hometown decision for Algieri is weak… Algieri was a NOBODY this was a showcase for Ruslan who has a name and they were trying leverage the big Russian community in Brooklyn, Provodnikov does not need to fight in Russia to get his wins perhaps he should consider working on his plan B… I would not have been opposed to either guy getting the nod that said I can see how the judges arrived at their decision… If Pac Man could not get the “W” after blasting Marquez 3x in the first and having other violent rounds then Provo was too focused on the kill as opposed to tactically working his way towards a stoppage or piling the points.. Putting Algieri down so early might have been the worst thing that could have happened in retrospect… Remember Freddy Roach saw a close fight or he would not have told him to go for the KO…Posted June 17, 2014 3:18 pm
Lion King, you cited a few folks who have stated their support for Provodnikov, there are also plenty who state their support for Algieri and since you mention Dan Rafaels take on things this is an excerpt from his statements regarding the bout….DAN RAFAEL ESPN……Rafael’s remarks: More than any other fight in recent memory the debate over the scoring of this fight has been incredibly intense. It seemed as though there was a massive divide down the middle. Some thought Algieri, after surviving two knockdowns in the first round, totally outboxed the cruder Provodnikov and clearly deserved the decision. And there are seemingly the same amount of people who believe the much harder punching and way more aggressive Provodnikov deserved the decision.
It is the classic example of a fight being scored depending on what you like. Do you like Provodnikov’s constant forward movement, heavy punching and damage inflicted (the key in professional boxing) or do you give more credit to the slicker guy, Algieri, who moves well, let’s his hands go all night but has nothing on his shots? Two judges — Don Trella and Tom Schreck, both of whom are consistently good judges — went with Algieri and one — Max DeLuca, also a top judge — went with Provodnikov and the result was a major upset as Algieri, 30, of nearby Huntington, New York, thrilled the partisan Barclays Center crowd of 6,128 by winning the belt.
Whomever you thought won the fight, Algieri deserves a lot of credit for surviving the first round when he looked to be in desperate trouble after Provodnikov, the 30-year-old “Siberian Rocky” from Russia, scored a hard knockdown on a left hook and then floored him again a few moments later. The result of the first knockdown was that Algieri wound up with a horrifically swollen and black and blue right eye that got progressively worse. By the eighth round it was closed and he could not see out of it, especially Provodnikov’s left hands. But he showed true grit to stay in the fight.Posted June 17, 2014 3:14 pm
Cotto booked the defining win of his career and that cannot be denied, no matter how Sergio looked the night of the bout he was the favorite going in, he was the legit MW Champ and Cotto was coming up in weight… Miguels ability to HURT Sergio so early in the contest, as well as the BLOWOUT nature of his victory demand his effort, preparation and execution be respected absent Monday Morning Quarterbacking… I thought Martinez would be too big for him, man enough to admit I was wrong…Posted June 17, 2014 2:48 pm
Golovkin has barely beaten ANY World Class competition the BEST MW in the World was Sergio Martinez until he was dethroned by Miguel Cotto… Martinez was the lineal MW Champion having defeated Pavlik, Williams, Murray, Chavez Jr, Barker, Macklin and Dzindurik…. Golovkins BEST win was a leftover from this crew that Martinez KOed, Golovkin his long and stats and SHORT on quality he is NOT the recognized MW Champion of the World , hes a belt holder at this moment that distinction belongs to the GREAT Miguel Cotto…Posted June 17, 2014 2:25 pm
BEARS (VINNI VIDDI VICCI SON)
3g was the best middle before martinez vs cotto. 3g is still the best middle. OH YEAH SNAP INTO A SLIM JIMPosted June 17, 2014 1:16 pm
Cotto and Canelo are on a collision course at this point, Miguel is not gonna take on another obscure opponent who brings NO $$$$ to the game… His stock has not been this high in YEARS, assuming Canelo wins I don’t see much getting in the way unless Mayweather wants a rematch which is iffy because Cotto getting ready for September is not a given… Cotto will fight Canelo, I give a slight edge to the younger man in this bout…Posted June 17, 2014 12:56 pm
based on skills and execution, Trout was blown out of the water by Canelo. “shocked” was his candid and unrehearsed post-bout response. Trout didn’t land a Single meaningful punch and was missing punches in bunches throughout the entire bout. conversely, Canelo was landing with impunity. that bout was no closer than Mayweather’s domination of Guerrero. Lara’s win v. Trout only reinforced what Canelo already proved: Trout is not in his league. never was. it’s what convinced Cotto to avoid Canelo’s challenge and target a rusty a broken-down Martinez for less. that is a pretty solid endorsement when a fighter in cash-out mode decides that a guaranteed $10 million payday still isn’t enough to face Canelo.Posted June 17, 2014 11:17 am
Bears, we KNOW You understand the word “Fantasy” because that’s the world you live in 24/7 where any FACTS that conflict with your “FANTASY” are immediately dismissed and flushed down the toilet… LOL!Posted June 17, 2014 10:38 am
Tark, YOU had Trout winning UNTIL you decided that you were abandoning Canelo post Mayweather and trying to campaign for Lara as the new “It Guy” based on him beating an ALREADY beaten Trout coming off a loss… Canelo vs Trout was a close fight in my eyes, certain scores were definitely wide as Paulie Malignaggi pointed out… That said you are a TERRIBLE flip flopper and if Lara loses I wonder will it be “weight drain” “training” “climate” what excuses do you have prebooked???Posted June 17, 2014 10:37 am
BEARS (VINNI VIDDI VICCI SON)
nice to see joe dismiss sredmond. this guy tries to pick apart your sentence never grasping the meaning in an attempt to character smear. if u applied his own standard to himself he would be ridiculed.
sredmond did not even understand joe’s use of the term fantasy though joe spelled it up and down this thread alluding to the subjectivity of the sport. how peoples bias effect how they view a fight. their subjectivity. we all have it. every boxing fan.
its time we start talking about it. because we seem to be to different sides. provodnikov vs algieri shows those sides//interpretations/bias/inclinations.
sredmond is nuts i agree with that. nd he has spewed out some hellacious racist jargon on the “cold shoulder” thread. dude is saying peckerwood, cavedweller, white trash. redneck. the dude is garbage really man. and u know he is supporting mayweather and ward all the wayPosted June 17, 2014 2:23 am
Herron wrote.., “Lara, Canelo, and Cotto are ridiculous for anyone!! Even for a fighter with Austin’s skills.”
He clearly dominated Cotto — so it wasn’t so ridiculous a matchup…
Now… the winner of Trout-Canelo was a matter of opinion — a lot of people had Trout winning because he landed a lot more punches … albeit weaker punches.
Lara??? Now you’re talking… Lara landed a lot more, and HARDER punches.. Lara kicked butt on Trout the way Pacquiao took care of Rios.. Considering the difference in boxing skills between Trout and Rios is vast, that was an impressive showing by Lara to say the least.
Floyd’s last fight? … Not so much.Posted June 17, 2014 2:21 am
I SAID Andrade would become CHAMP when he was still Fighting on ESPN and I was CORRECT. He has the SKILLS and can give anyone a RUN for their money. SO beware.Posted June 17, 2014 12:16 am
Disagreement is the key to any democracy!
Had a brief ‘Bromance’ with Trout following his performance against Cotto, however I thought he could have done a little more against Canelo to make that more competitive and Lara was simply to much…
Having said that I am definitely buying stock in Andrade and believe he would probably be better suited for the 160 class and ultimately a 168 to 175 due to his height (6’1) and age (26) where he could dominate for the next 7-8 years with the right matchmaking.
No sense in killing himself to make 154 when there are plenty of realistic opportunities at the higher classes.Posted June 16, 2014 9:20 pm
Thanks for tuning in, R.Kelly!!
I don’t expect everyone to agree with my opinions on the Sunday program…it’s allowed in the world of boxing!! LOL
I think Austin would like to have more of a trajectory opponent for his next assignment…Lara, Canelo, and Cotto is ridiculous for anyone!! Even for a fighter with Austin’s skills.
But thanks again for tuning in!! If there is anything we can do to improve the integrity of the show, please let me know via email at herron.joseph2112 at att.netPosted June 16, 2014 9:04 pm
Love the platform and have looked forward to listening in the last five weeks, even when I disagree with you Joe! Loved the hour with Ronnie Shields. Felt his input last week would have been good for the balance in the debate.
Would love to see a matchup featuring Andrade v. Trout as it would be a definite step up in competition for him and would be an opportunity to see if Trout still has anything in the tank at the elite level.
Love the grit, determination and courage of Algieri. I say he gives Provo a rematch. With their respective styles, I say he beats him 7 out of 10 times regardless of venue.
Styles make fights!Posted June 16, 2014 8:24 pm
Good to hear from you, Butajay!! God bless you, brother!!Posted June 16, 2014 8:04 pm
SREDMOND: “If it’s a fantasy why are you writing about it? And reporting?”
My goodness!! I write about the sport because it’s a passion for me, and there is an audience for the articles I write…why does anyone write anything?
You’re nuts, Sredmond…that’s my perception…LOLPosted June 16, 2014 7:52 pm
If it’s a fantasy why are you writing about it? And reporting? I already called your pivot to P4P before you went there.. You don’t think the sports anything more than a fantasy so really what’s the value of your opinions? Basically you think this is all fiction so being credible does not seem like an option given your position..But to each their ownPosted June 16, 2014 7:41 pm
SREDMOND, this is a huge waste of time…I can’t help it if you’re incapable of grasping the abstract concept of sports falling under the category of fantasy.
So I guess Floyd being the mythical pound for pound king of the world is not a figment of your imagination, and the imagination of everyone who rides his figurative jock. That’s real, eh?
He’s simply a man, just like I am or you are.
If you can’t see that, then you are touched in the head, brother!! LOLPosted June 16, 2014 5:57 pm
Pivoting to Floyds Titles or Ring Status is not gonna negate you considering the sport “A fantasy” its a VERY odd perspective for this occupation…Posted June 16, 2014 5:49 pm
Joseph, I have an opinion and I have no problem debating my position… A guy telling me that “Boxing is a Fantasy” strikes me as odd and its debatable how credible the perspective of a person who does NOT even believe in the reality of what he is discussing could be??Posted June 16, 2014 5:47 pm
Joseph are you telling me that the death of Doo Koo Kim was a fantasy? That the brain damage sustained by Gerald G Man McClellan after his bout with Nigel Benn was a fantasy? Are you telling me that Manny Pacquiaos wife crying because her husband was facedown on the canvas was a “Fantasy”…..?????? This is the Websters dictionary definition of a “Fantasy” the aforementioned occurrence’s do not fit the profile……1fan·ta·sy noun \ˈfan-tə-sē, -zē\
: something that is produced by the imagination : an idea about doing something that is far removed from normal reality
: the act of imagining something
: a book, movie, etc., that tells a story about things that happen in an imaginary worldPosted June 16, 2014 5:45 pm
You know, SREDMOND, I think you merely pick a side and argue simply for the sake of debate…that’s my opinion. LOLPosted June 16, 2014 5:37 pm
SREDMOND: “It is indeed possible that Ward saw Algieri landing more punches which is the core of the sport (punching) and made his choice based on that? Again you don’t really know but YOUR bias is informing your perceptions of Wards favoring Algieri… Again just pointing this out man!”
It’s my job to view factors in and around the sport objectively, and report on this. If I’m wrong in my assessment, please explain to me then why Weisfeld and Ward’s interpretation of the action differed so drastically.
When you can admit that I am correct in my assessment, then I will acknowledge your personal growth as a boxing fan on this forum…LOLPosted June 16, 2014 5:34 pm
SREDMOND: “Joseph, boxing is indeed a sport that said you think its just a fantasy? that’s utterly ridiculous if it is then do you consider yourself a fiction writer? Do you think Algieri thought it was a fantasy when he had to receive treatment on his injured eye? Or when Provodnikov cashes that check for 750k its PLAY money? I guess when Abdulasamov’s family visited him in a vegetative state they assumed that their loved one was “play acting” because (Joseph thinks boxing is a fantasy) Guess Abdulasamov is gonna return to the ring and start “Playing again” once the director yells “Cut”……Strange Take on Boxing Joseph Herron”
My word!! It’s a matter of perception, SREDMOND…yes, the punishment is very real, and anyone who doesn’t have the same passion that you possess for the sport could clearly question any prizefighter’s sanity for going through with this kind of battery just for money.
Those who write articles for cash, or those passionate fans who read the articles we write, ultimately validate the sport and those who participate in it.
But yes…ultimately it is a sport…and yes, ultimately it falls within the realm of fantasy.
Because at the end of the day, does Floyd’s world wide ranking as the pound for pound best fighter in the world have any bearing on what happens in our day to day lives?
Face it, brother…boxing is a very expensive version of “paper dolls” for male adults.Posted June 16, 2014 5:21 pm
Joseph when examining the statement below is it POSSIBLE than Ward judged the bout based on the criteria designated by the sport ie “clean punching, effective, ring generalship, effective aggression” or are you 1000% certain that Ward only went according to his own “Bias” I have seen many fighters style that I don’t prefer yet had to award them the win based on the action…??? It is indeed possible that Ward saw Algieri landing more punches which is the core of the sport (punching) and made his choice based on that? Again you don’t really know but YOUR bias is informing your perceptions of Wards favoring Algieri… Again just pointing this out man!Posted June 16, 2014 5:18 pm
Joseph, I understand your waffling regarding your denunciation of Andre Wards analysis but your stance is in black and white.. you were dismissive of Wards assessment because of your perception of his preferences.. Jus summing this up for you manPosted June 16, 2014 5:13 pm
Joseph, boxing is indeed a sport that said you think its just a fantasy? that’s utterly ridiculous if it is then do you consider yourself a fiction writer? Do you think Algieri thought it was a fantasy when he had to receive treatment on his injured eye? Or when Provodnikov cashes that check for 750k its PLAY money? I guess when Abdulasamov’s family visited him in a vegetative state they assumed that their loved one was “play acting” because (Joseph thinks boxing is a fantasy) Guess Abdulasamov is gonna return to the ring and start “Playing again” once the director yells “Cut”……Strange Take on Boxing Joseph HerronPosted June 16, 2014 5:11 pm
SREDMOND: “Joseph Herron, I would disagree that “because it is sport it is fantasy” there is actual cause and effect involved, money transacted and and an established structure… I agree that Fantasy baseball, Fantasy basketball etc are indeed based on “modeling” as opposed to action within a given contest but your reduction of the Sport to Fantasy strikes me as Bizarre…”
Oh my goodness!! Just because athletes get paid to play a game, doesn’t make it any more “real” than when I play a game of wiffle ball with my son in the back yard!!
So by your reasoning, the drama that we see on the sliver screen is actually happening in real life because the actors get paid to portray certain characters in a movie?
Man…that’s bad, SREDMOND!!Posted June 16, 2014 5:06 pm
SREDMOND: “Joseph in the above statement you use the term “BIAS” which has a negative connotation, you basically say that Ward could not have been an objective observer and essentially he eschews boxers who are less technical and more “gattiesque” for lack of a better word…In essence you are stating that Ward could not have been an objective, professional observer of the contest… Jus Say’in man..”
Bias has a negative connotation in your mind, brother. But when discussing reality, it’s a simple truth of the sport…decisions are based on personal tastes and preferences of the judges at ringside.
I also stated that Ward, as well as Weisfeld, professionally pointed out that the action could be interpreted differently than how each of them viewed and scored the action.
Please try to read what I post objectively, and without personal bias. LOLPosted June 16, 2014 5:01 pm
Joseph Herron, I would disagree that “because it is sport it is fantasy” there is actual cause and effect involved, money transacted and and an established structure… I agree that Fantasy baseball, Fantasy basketball etc are indeed based on “modeling” as opposed to action within a given contest but your reduction of the Sport to Fantasy strikes me as Bizarre…Posted June 16, 2014 4:56 pm
obi wan: “Only the Sith deal in absolutes Darth redmond”
LOL…the post of the day!! I love it!!Posted June 16, 2014 4:51 pm
munty the dog farmer: “BEARS and SREDMOND watch a guy shadow boxing. BEARS scores it for the man for initiating the action. Redmond scores it for the shadow because it is darker and impossible to land on.”
Right on the money, my friend…beautiful post!!Posted June 16, 2014 4:49 pm
SREDMOND: “Joseph Herron, its one thing to have a favorite fighter its another thing to have an overwhelming minority view of a fighters standing in the sport that’s called FANTASY and if that’s the realm you want to operate in then ANYTHING is possible…. I guess Lomanchenko is an ATG already??? HAHAHAHAHAHA!”
All of this is fantasy, SREDMOND…it’s a sport, brother. My word!!
It’s like arguing whether or not Darth Vader is really Luke Skywalker’s father.
That’s what boxing die-hards sound like to most sane people who have no interest in the sport of boxing.
Sad but true.
But it’s what we love and it’s what we feel passionately about. Nothing wrong with that!!Posted June 16, 2014 4:48 pm
munty the dog farmer
BEARS and SREDMOND watch a guy shadow boxing. BEARS scores it for the man for initiating the action. Redmond scores it for the shadow because it is darker and impossible to land on.Posted June 16, 2014 4:47 pm
”That wasn’t so obvious before and I gave Floyd the benefit of the doubt for a long time. Now it’s clear.“
ok, i can accept that.
the fake tark argument was laughable.Posted June 16, 2014 4:27 pm
Only the Sith deal in absolutes Darth redmondPosted June 16, 2014 4:25 pm
Joseph Herron, you say “that Ward obviously favors that style and that it greatly affected his judgment” are you not kind of invalidating YOUR earlier contentions about one opinion being just as valid as the other? and does this not reflect YOUR perception of HIS perception?Posted June 16, 2014 4:22 pm
Joseph Herron, its one thing to have a favorite fighter its another thing to have an overwhelming minority view of a fighters standing in the sport that’s called FANTASY and if that’s the realm you want to operate in then ANYTHING is possible…. I guess Lomanchenko is an ATG already??? HAHAHAHAHAHA!Posted June 16, 2014 4:19 pm
SREDMOND: “That said if everything is open to interpretation then why not designate Anthony Mundine, Manuel Charr or Chris Algieri the BEST fighter in the World?”
I’m sure those fighter’s fans could make a case for that…it wouldn’t be a very strong or convincing argument, but anyone can make a case for their favorites in the sport of boxing.
Just like you make a case for your favorite fighters each and every day on this forum.
Does that make it the absolute truth? NopePosted June 16, 2014 3:56 pm
SREDMOND: “Floyds ACTUAL record according to established standards of the sport is NOT in dispute, in all 46 of his fights judges authorized to preside over the bouts deemed him the WINNER and their ruling is verifiable via easy fact checking and official documentation.”
That’s absurd, SREDMOND…how do you think the powers that be established those parameters? Laws and regulations are subject to change through due process. Why? Because those subjects are not absolute, brother.
To say that anyone who wins by ringside judgment is the absolute winner, when it is merely the product of three judges’ interpretation of the action that unfolds is extremely naive.
Is it a product of the system? Yes.
Is the system based on interpretation? Yes
Should the results be considered and interpreted as the absolute truth? No
It’s merely an interpretation of what transpired in the ring…and is subject to debate.
Have you ever discounted or disputed a judge’s interpretation of the action that unfolds in the ring? Of course, everyone has and often does.
What do you think everyone is doing here when they debate everything pertinent to boxing?
To think anything is absolute when referring to a process that is determined by so many subjective factors and human elements is absurd.Posted June 16, 2014 3:52 pm
@ TARK fanatic.., It’s pretty obvious now that whatever Pacquiao agreed to, Floyd would have found another roadblock to erect to stop him from having to face Pacquiao. Pacquiao has agreed to everything … and no fight.
That wasn’t so obvious before and I gave Floyd the benefit of the doubt for a long time. Now it’s clear.
Floyd even admitted in interviews he doesn’t want to fight Pacquiao. He doesn’t have to … so it’s a fight we’ll never see.Posted June 16, 2014 3:31 pm
Floyds ACTUAL record according to established standards of the sport is NOT in dispute, in all 46 of his fights judges authorized to preside over the bouts deemed him the WINNER and their ruling is verifiable via easy fact checking and official documentation.. The interpretation of their ruling is subject to individual though or scrutiny but that cannot VACATE their ruling..Alot of folks think “Roe vs Wade” is a travesty but the reality is that women can legally get abortions everyday if they have the inclination… Disagreement with the LAW or the RULING on a bout cannot be overturned by the whims and caprices of individuals or everyones favorite fighter would be Undefeated and every Law would be broken without consequence..Posted June 16, 2014 3:21 pm
smallest pen!s contest in brooklyn today … what the phuk are you doing here ?Posted June 16, 2014 3:21 pm
Joseph Herron, there are certain metrics that are widely accepted in boxing if you want to vacate them and be 100% subjective in that regard certainly that’s your choice.. Mayweather being Ring Champ in a couple of weight classes is a FACT just as the debt rating on a given country or security (Bond) as designated by Moodys or Fitch is such… That said if everything is open to interpretation then why not designate Anthony Mundine, Manuel Charr or Chris Algieri the BEST fighter in the World?Posted June 16, 2014 3:17 pm
SREDMOND: “Joseph, I FULLY understand preferences and tastes as it pertains to fighting style, mine run the gamut… That said dismissal of reality is NOT something that I entertain well nor see value in”
That’s what I don’t think you truly understand…when discussing an extremely subjective art like prizefighting and the scoring process, what do you consider to be “reality”?
Reality is not subject to interpretation by definition…the truth simply is what it is…the truth isn’t relative, the truth is absolute.
In the sport of boxing, even when you consider accomplishments, is Mayweather’s resume as impressive as most of his fans and supporters claim?
He’s the pound for pound best fighter in the world…what exactly does that mean? He’s the Ring recognized champion in two different weight divisions…what exactly does that mean?
It’s an interpretation and judgment based on actions in the ring. Is it the truth or “reality” as you word it? No.
Even Floyd’s record is subject to interpretation…according to boxrec, Floyd is undefeated, right? According to many of his detractors, Floyd has three losses on his resume…to Castillo, De La Hoya, and Maidana.
What is the reality?
Judge slowly when discussing the sport, and you begin to see a much greater picture of the splendor that is the sweet science.Posted June 16, 2014 2:52 pm
Joseph, I FULLY understand preferences and tastes as it pertains to fighting style, mine run the gamut… That said dismissal of reality is NOT something that I entertain well nor see value in.. My comment on Bears was based on the consistent dismissal of ACTUAL outcomes and results mixed with, constant excuses and conspiracies… Some things are FACTS ie Andre Ward won the Super 6, Floyd Mayweather is the Unifed Champ at 147 and 154.. Wlad Klits is RING Champ at HW… When a person simply ignores reality or makes things up that did NOT happen then their opinion is childish NOT credible… Saying a certain fighter took an utter beating when the converse is true is FAR off the map..Its the difference between the extremes of either party ie Tea Baggers or Super Liberals there is something in the middle that has some level of consideration for each perspective and strives to get a little closer to the truth.. Again I would challenge someone to find a scenario where I completely dismissed the action, I HATE conspiracies ie “hes on PED’s” “The bout was rigged” when something a guy does not like occurs, some are serial offenders with that crap and I simply don’t buy or accept constant unsubstantiated claims when a guys fighter loses…If you consider that “passion” then so be it.Posted June 16, 2014 2:19 pm
TARK STOP LYING !!!!
Floyd Pacquiao would have happened if Pacquiao agreed to the PED testing regimen up front…
The reason Pacquiao won the lawsuit settlement is because Floyd, Floyd Sr, De La Hoya, and Richard Schaefer of Golden Boy Promotions put damaging innuendo out there. If they didn’t settle out of court and apologize sincerely, they were risking massive fines in the 8 figures.
But all the allegations didn’t hurt Pacquiao… Pacquiao’s fights did better than ever when Floyd was ripping him verbally. It was just more ink and more free publicity.
Like they always say, “I don’t give a damn what you write or say about me … just spell or pronounce my name correctly when you do it.”
Posted August 21, 2013 5:56 pmPosted June 16, 2014 1:42 pm
SREDMOND: “Joseph, you are right about one thing the man is VERY “Emotional” which is the antithesis of “LOGICAL”
So are you when it comes to viewing your favorite fighters, which isn’t a knock or a bad thing.
How many times have you been accused of favoritism on this forum or comment board?
That’s what makes you a die hard fan of boxing…it’s a great thing, brother.
Just because Algieri’s style of fighting is not Bears’ cup of tea, figuratively speaking, and seems to be more apt to your liking, it doesn’t make Bears wrong.
That’s my point…everyone has their own personal tastes and preferences on this forum. Just because Bears doesn’t see much merit in Algieri’s fight style and favors the harder punching, aggressive fight style of Provodnikov, it doesn’t make him less rational and knowledgeable of a fight fan.
That’s a big misconception among fans of Floyd Mayweather, Andre Ward, or any other defensive minded counter puncher…most advocates of that style truly believe that if a fan doesn’t appreciate and enjoy watching that style of fighting, that it ultimately equates to less knowledge of the fight game.
That’s rubbish, brother. It’s a huge misconception on the forums and comment boards.Posted June 16, 2014 1:26 pm
Joseph, you are right about one thing the man is VERY “Emotional” which is the antithesis of “LOGICAL”Posted June 16, 2014 12:44 pm
SREDMOND: “Joseph, I disagree to some extent there is a subset that actually can actually respect the work of a boxer who is not their favorite… I am a Floyd fan, but if Maidana had KOed him I would not allege Cement, PED’s, Corruption, FMJ being poisoned or Radiation being beamed into his aorta…All opinions are not created equal”
LOL…you’re right…I’m not saying that his opinion has more merit than anyone else’s, what I am saying is that you can’t blame an emotionally driven fan in feeling the way he or she feels about a subjective product like boxing.
The sport thrives off of emotionally invested fans like Bears or anyone else.
Embrace it, brother…if he or anyone else didn’t have this kind of emotional response, the fight game would cease to exist.Posted June 16, 2014 12:35 pm
Joseph, I disagree to some extent there is a subset that actually can actually respect the work of a boxer who is not their favorite… I am a Floyd fan, but if Maidana had KOed him I would not allege Cement, PED’s, Corruption, FMJ being poisoned or Radiation being beamed into his aorta…All opinions are not created equalPosted June 16, 2014 12:22 pm
All three of your posts are right on the money, TC…great job summarizing what transpired this past Saturday nightPosted June 16, 2014 12:20 pm
Tomato Can, Weisfeld I believe (HBO) was totally dismissing Algieris work which is NOT remotely sensible in the context of boxing because it FAVORS the slugger too greatly… I think some of the problem was the perception of Ruslan as the hard hitter and Chris as the feather fist, obviously major damage was done in the first round but beyond that Algieri was never in real trouble and he was clearly landing on Provo’s face… Congrats on your second SOLID call in as many weeks I did not know anything about this guy and assumed he was a walkover opponent for Provodnikov..Posted June 16, 2014 12:19 pm
SREDMOND: “Bears t ignores or diminishes the work of fighters who oppose the ones he favors on a routine basis hence my dismissal of his opinion… To hear him tell it, Provodnikov knocked Chris block off and not a single landed punch of Algieris was meaningful or worthy of scoring.”
That’s not unlike most passionate fight fans on most comment boards. That’s simply how avid fans are…nothing wrong with that.
I wish I could watch these fights with emotional interest these days…it’s a real blessing and a curse to be able to cover the sport of boxingPosted June 16, 2014 12:18 pm
I still think Algieri deserves a lot of credit for not only getting through that first round, but also handling the pressure the atmosphere of that fight must have presented. I had picked him to upset Provo going into the fight, but backed away from that prediction based on the facts that I felt Provo was riding high, and Algieri would be to green going into such a fight with powerhouse like Provo. He proved me wrong. I should have stuck with my initial pick.Posted June 16, 2014 12:16 pm
IMO, the guy providing HBO’s score card, wasn’t giving enough credit for the work Algieri was doing. I think the fight was much closer than what he had it at. But it’s all subjective, which is why us as fans are seldom all on the same page concerning who actually won or lost.Posted June 16, 2014 12:09 pm
I felt Provo did enough to win. He was the champ, he was the aggressor (although maybe bot effective at all times). But on the same token I can’t argue the decision sinse Algieri landed the majority of the punches, and orther than the first round, he kept Provo stumpped throughout the fight. This was exactly my worry about Provo going into the fight. He can stand and trade with the best of them, but give him an elusive target, and he’ll plod his way to a loss.Posted June 16, 2014 12:05 pm
Joseph, I have no issue with a rematch and some of the arguments on here are reasoned and proportional.. Bears t ignores or diminishes the work of fighters who oppose the ones he favors on a routine basis hence my dismissal of his opinion… To hear him tell it, Provodnikov knocked Chris block off and not a single landed punch of Algieris was meaningful or worthy of scoring.Posted June 16, 2014 12:03 pm
SREDMOND, in all fairness, he’s not wrong in feeling that Provo deserved to win the fight…one judge at ringside agrees with him.
There should be a rematch.Posted June 16, 2014 11:46 am
Bears, is in the business of overturning ALL decisions when he either likes or dislikes one of the fighters so whats really new about this? He wants Provo to go on and be a megastar or an elite fighter which is never gonna happen.. Ruslan is a nice guy and a hell of a puncher but the limitations of his game are well known, what was not known is that Algieri was gonna be able to weather the storm when a tough guy like Mike Alvarado could NOT… All credit to Algieri for toughing it out and showing he has enough skills to overcome a determined World Class slugger in Provodnikov..Posted June 16, 2014 11:34 am
BEARS: “everyone at hbo and espn had provodnikov winning it looks like. i did as well. so did an official judge. so a did TONS of fans.”
And you guys aren’t incorrect in how you saw the action. I talked about this with Ronnie Shields on the show last night…”clean, effective, and consequential punching” can be interpreted two ways.
Ruslan’s punches arguably had the greater consequence, because every time he let his hands go, despite how sporadic and infrequent his offensive output became in the back half of the fight, it seemed to have a much greater effect on his opponent.
But you can also make the case for Algieri’s work having greater consequence, because the jab and the occasional right hand, left hook was dictating the pace of the fight and curbing Ruslan’s offensive productivity. Although Ruslan was clearly in punching range for most of the fight, the jab, upper body and head movement, and lateral foowork was freezing Provo, turning him into a more tentative fighter.
As strange as this sounds, both groups of fans are correct in feeling their man deserved to get the nod in this fight.
If there ever was a clear case for a rematch, this is it!!Posted June 16, 2014 11:31 am
BEARS: “Espn….com had it 115-111 provodnikov. i had it for provodnikov. Joe how did you have it?”
I actually scored the fight the first time I watched it six rounds to six, or 114-112 in favor of Provo.
The second time I watched the fight, I scored it exactly like two of the judges at ringside…8 rounds to 4 or 114-112 in favor of Algieri.
If you haven’t had a chance to listen to the show, John Scully actually has a very insightful commentary about how the broadcast commentators influence the viewers’ judgment and how it effects the way you look at the action.
His commentary begins at the 104 minute mark of the show. Great stuff from the IcemanPosted June 16, 2014 11:20 am
Don’t worry BEARS. Your PMS must be real bad this month. Don’t let Provodnikov losing affect your period pains. We know it’s hard to accept your mangina bleeds like those of other normal girls. But, your mangina seems to bleed excessively and to no known cycle. It damn near bleeds every single day and you drop the mother load most weekends. There, there Bears. You do have Canelo vs Lara to look forward to. Just remember to take some aspirins before the fight and to insert some heavy duty tampons inside, cause something tells me you gonna be doing some heavy bleeding and even this week end. Actually, you gonna be butt-sore as well as the man you love to hate Guerrero is fighting. Why not donate all that blood and do something worthwhile for a change? If you can get the jumbo-sized tamps then I reckon you get some heavy duty diapers, cause you gonna be doing a lot of bleeding over the next few weeks. Wah, wah, wah, wah!Posted June 16, 2014 10:58 am
everyone at hbo and espn had provodnikov winning it looks like. i did as well. so did an official judge. so a did TONS of fans.
what sredmond is talking about i dont know. i dont think he even watched the fightPosted June 16, 2014 10:13 am
Hidalgo, some are mad because Algeri set Provodnikov back and did not win in a Blue Collar rock’em sock’em manner.. The fact he showed MAJOR guts cannot be in intelligent dispute, but when Bears and others anoint a fighter they are gonna vacate, smear and slander any other boxer that takes a dump on their dreams… Algeri has a BIG heart that any real fight fan can respect..Posted June 16, 2014 10:03 am
Provodnikov let a MAJOR underdog take the play away from him and that’s a legitimate set back in this business.. Algeri was supposed to be LIGHT work and instead he flipped the script and put himself in a position to have his hand raised after a hard KD in round 1…If guys are SOOOOOO opposed to Algeri being a “light puncher” then why are the OK with Ruslan and his team accepting this match for $750k? it was Provo’s biggest payday against a light punching former Kickboxer with a limited amateur background and he found a way to be unimpressive and lose… This is EXACTLTY the reason that you cannot take any opponent lightly in this business.. Provodnikov is gonna be carefully matched in the future because the blueprint to beat him is pretty clear between Bradley and Algeri (box, give him angles, don’t stand in front of him, disrupt his timing with the jab)Posted June 16, 2014 9:31 am
turbo hamster on tequila
Yeah Provo is a mong. Your phone auto corrected you to mansiPosted June 16, 2014 5:45 am
Turb0-Hamster hitting the hill@ Provo is a Mansi, you retarded bastard.Posted June 16, 2014 5:28 am
Algeiri vs Pacman! It will be an easy fight for Pacman.Posted June 16, 2014 4:02 am
Espn….com had it 115-111 provodnikov. i had it for provodnikov. Joe how did you have it?
of course there changes provo can make and the nicest thing about it is prov can walk right through algieri’s apparent weak sauce for punches and deliver his own extra mustard knuckle sandwiches.
prov needs to let his hands go in combination as algieri is moving all wiley. prov lets his hands go more and algieri will open up like a can of corn.
prov did great at getting algieri confined in limited space. it was punches in bunches that will open up algieri especially hitting him onthe run. keep the gap closed! be able to grab your opponents belt.
keep the fight there punches in bunches and the openings will happen. its that rough fight that is the perfect contradiction to algieris long arm rangey jab style. close quarter combat.Posted June 16, 2014 3:41 am
Turb0-Hamster hitting the hills
I used to do judo to a very high level when I was younger. Once at our club, we had a kid with Down Syndrome join, and everyone liked him he was very eager, and you think you would just deal with him easily enough. But those dudes, they have (to be politically incorrect) real mong strength. It comes out of nowhere, and it is like they can`t control it. It`s hard to maneouver them around and take advantage of their balance too because they react slightly too slowly for your natural techniques to work on them, it`s just maddening.
Provodnikov is monged to the extreme. He is a megamong. A destructamong.
But once you have got a handle on a mong, and have adjusted to their weird mong rhythm, it all gets easier, and Provo unfortunately is probably being adjusted to.Posted June 16, 2014 2:23 am
Stick and move
Fun fight to watch… It was almost like watching one of the K brothers fighting.. Minus the hugging and power..Posted June 16, 2014 1:14 am
algieri hasn’t been around long enough to learn how to punch. he’ll get better leverage the more he goes. he has no amateur fights and few pro fights. he’s not the finished article.Posted June 16, 2014 12:46 am
Great fight by Chris . Showed heart and skill not often seen, he was able to stay calm and stick to his game plan . Fingers crossed that eye is OkPosted June 15, 2014 11:05 pm
Late to the party again this week but had some big family news dropped upon my lap today. Been avoiding the drink and sending up prayers for strength.
I am fine so no worries as we never walk alonePosted June 15, 2014 11:03 pm
Never thought Chris would hang with the power of Russian.
My bad, Happy Fathers Day Joseph/ JK & All boxing fans,, now on to biz. Chris not only out boxed but he did it with one eye, one heart and one determined mind. Chris came back from 2 knock downs or 1 and a knee and showed more guts than we have seen since Broner was getting clubbed around by Maidana. However Broner could not push past the wall the recover and Chris sure as he’ll never stopped moving or throwing.
Nice fight.Posted June 15, 2014 11:01 pm
Thanks for hanging with us, Luke!!!Posted June 15, 2014 10:47 pm
Floyd lose to Maidana
That’s all Algieri could doPosted June 15, 2014 10:37 pm
I do think if they had a rematch Ruslan could improve on his performance but also Algieri could improve on his to. Especially after being put through the fire like he was. He gained a lot of experience.Posted June 15, 2014 10:29 pm
Ruslan needed to keep doing what he did in the first. He was cutting the ring off good but he stopped with the good body punching that he started with. That is He kept winging the same punches up to the head and Algieri caught on to it.Posted June 15, 2014 10:28 pm
Floyd lose to Maidana
If Floyd Mayweather was at the other side of the ring against Provo last night instead of Algieri, Floyd would have lost. Provo is an even stronger “Maidana” so I’d expect Floyd to avoid Provo. Good win for Algieri though, thanks to good ole fashion home cookingPosted June 15, 2014 10:09 pm
Algeiri the next boring thing in boxing!Posted June 15, 2014 9:21 pm
Well fights aren’t judged by sellability. They are judged by rounds. I didn’t score the fight but I thought it was a close fight. Yes I will say Provo is a more fan friendly fighter but being fan friendly doesn’t win you fights, just gets you on TV and ups your purse a bit. But I am sure Ruslan would much rather have that title belt on him.Posted June 15, 2014 9:21 pm
The wrong guy won…Boxing would be a lot better off with Provo for obvious reasons; I thought Provo was the clear winner so to me the judges, despite their good intentions, fu/cked up big time. Algieri-whatever-is a nice guy but he’s un-saleable; the guy can’t punch for sh!t…what’s next? who’s gonna be looking forward to fight this guy? this non-puncher couldn’t be exciting in a porn movie…f*ck that.Posted June 15, 2014 9:13 pm
So did Bob Arum…the theater of the unexpected!!Posted June 15, 2014 8:57 pm
Brazilian Boxing Fan
I predicted that Algieri would win. I was right.Posted June 15, 2014 8:54 pm